Armor

[Brian Leybourne]

As for shields, I disagree. They hamper your defness as much, if not more, then armor. You are right, shields do not "make you fight worse"; however, a shield limits certain options and vision (tho not in a way that would cause a PER penalty). For example, you will not be able to make cuts from the low side your shield is on, AND your foe will no this. Shields are incorperated into the style by using that great DTN and allowing you such wonderful options as Sim/Block Strike, Block Open, and Bind. I agree they need to be a part of the fatigue rules. I for one count heavy shields as heavy armor, causing the lose of 1Cp every EN rounds.

Hmm.. I'm obviously not getting my point across entirely.

When I buy proficiency points, my character is training in the use of the "weapon configuration" in question. If I'm using a single sword style, and I add a shield, I completely agree that my options are now limited and I should suffer a CP penalty (I do already, it's called a default proficiency rating to Sword & Shield style). If I'm using a sword and shield, I'm calling on the training I have done with that configuration. Yes, I have more maneuvers available, but I also have a raw skill with how the weapon and shield and I all interact.

Or, in other words, what's the point of buying up my "sword" proficiency differently from my "sword and shield" proficiency, if I just lose CP from sword&shield because I'm using a shield? It's counter-intuative. My sword&shield proficiency should be my ability when using a sword and a shield. Am I making sense? I'm not sure I'm getting my point across. Yes, the shield hampers my dftness, but that's why I specifically trained in a sword&shield style to learn how to counteract that. Otherwise I may as well just have trained in a sword style.

And I know what you're going to say, but Armor is a different case IMO, because it's not a part of the style. I can use either style with or without armor, but if I have a shield I'm using sword&shield style, if I don't then I'm not.

Brian.

[Jake Norwood]

Brian-

Did you know that most all of the CP shield penalties were dropped in the revised ed?

Jake

[Brian Leybourne]

Brian-

Did you know that most all of the CP shield penalties were dropped in the revised ed?

Jake

Ah, no, I didn't know that :-)

Damn, I really must buy a revised copy. Unfortunately, given that it's $100 here, I haven't had the heart or the wallet capacity to do so. (I should have a copy for brag rights anyway since I'm told my name is in it *grin*).

Well, that's pretty much in line with what I'm saying then.. cut back the penalties for shields (and then presumably account for them in fatigue?). Cool.

Hmm.. now you have me wondering what other changes were made. Someone emailed me a while back telling me that chain shirts with sleeves no longer get a CP penalty, and wanted me to change the combat sim to reflect that. What else got changed? Or were there so many that I really just have to bite the bullet and buy the revised book?

Brian.

[Vanguard]

Valamir has a point.  There IS a difference between reducing the CP loss of armour from high strength, and adding to it due to low strength.  If u were to remove CP loss due to high STR there would come a point where uberstrength would negate all CP loss altogether.

As stated in other posts, strength is a factor in coping with the weight of armour, but the greatest impact comes from the sheer impediment to your movement.  As such, no matter how strong you might be, that armour will always be restricting your freedom to some degree.

So yeah, maybe an additional CP loss should be added for every point of str beneath a minimum level - say 3 for plate? A weakling in plate would thus be tottering about the battlefield. Above a certain fitness, the effect of wearing plate would end up the same regardless of strength.

Take care

[Aaron]

Brian-

Did you know that most all of the CP shield penalties were dropped in the revised ed?

Jake

and

Damn, I really must buy a revised copy. Unfortunately, given that it's $100 here, I haven't had the heart or the wallet capacity to do so. (I should have a copy for brag rights anyway since I'm told my name is in it *grin*).

I've got a book with Brian's name in it and the heater shield has -1 CP and the kite -3...Is that right?  Or has the revised copy come out after mine?
Thanks
Aaron

[Shadeling]

Brian-

Did you know that most all of the CP shield penalties were dropped in the revised ed?

Jake

and

Damn, I really must buy a revised copy. Unfortunately, given that it's $100 here, I haven't had the heart or the wallet capacity to do so. (I should have a copy for brag rights anyway since I'm told my name is in it *grin*).

I've got a book with Brian's name in it and the heater shield has -1 CP and the kite -3...Is that right?  Or has the revised copy come out after mine?
Thanks
Aaron

That is right Aaron-the CP penalties were much more severe in non-revised.

[Jake Norwood]

Yeah...

The revised ed. is the one 90% of you have, and has a white ARMA logo on the back. The changes in the revised ed are noted in the afterword.

Jake

[Mokkurkalfe]

Is there any possibility that anyone can tell those of us that have the 1st edition what changes these are, exactly?

[Jake Norwood]

Is there any possibility that anyone can tell those of us that have the 1st edition what changes these are, exactly?

Most of it is covered in the Afterward. The sorcery chapter you've seen, I assume. Other than that we tweaked armor stats and 2 maneuvers. The maneuver info is here on the forum somewhere. Anyone has my permission to post the armor changes.

jake

[Mokkurkalfe]

Ok. I've seen the maneuers and the sorcery bit. Now, is anyone willing to share the armour bit?

[toli]

Think of it like this: Full plate with a helm costs you 5CP per round (6 in the combat sim because I had to simplify the penalties by location a bit. At some point I'll reprogram armor), but it effectively gives you +6 defensive dice per exchange. There are 2 exchanges per round, so you've lost 5/6 dice to gain 12 defensive dice.

The sounds like a bargain to me :-)

Brian.

Two thoughts.  First the gain is actually better than you mention because the armor points (6 from plate) are guarunteed not rolled vs a target number.  With a dtn of 5, the number of successes would average at about half...So in two exchanges  it is more like 24 or more dice for defense when you wear plate.  If your oppenent doesn't really have the strength and weapon to penetrate your armor...it is a bit of a field day...

However, against a very strong, very tough, high CP character with a big weapon, not getting hit (more dice for parrying or blocking) might be more of a priority than absorbing damage.  A successful parry or block preempts a high STR.  Getting hit allows that sSTR to come into play...and hurt....I'd run and shoot him with arrows....

While armor is good in many situations there is probably no one perfect combination of armor and weapons.  One must choose one's weapons and armor for the situation and opponent...and know when to withdraw.....



NT

[Shadeling]

I will post the revised armor stats tonight.

[Mokkurkalfe]

Two thoughts.  First the gain is actually better than you mention because the armor points (6 from plate) are guarunteed not rolled vs a target number.  With a dtn of 5, the number of successes would average at about half...So in two exchanges  it is more like 24 or more dice for defense when you wear plate.  If your oppenent doesn't really have the strength and weapon to penetrate your armor...it is a bit of a field day...

However, against a very strong, very tough, high CP character with a big weapon, not getting hit (more dice for parrying or blocking) might be more of a priority than absorbing damage.  A successful parry or block preempts a high STR.  Getting hit allows that sSTR to come into play...and hurt....I'd run and shoot him with arrows....

While armor is good in many situations there is probably no one perfect combination of armor and weapons.  One must choose one's weapons and armor for the situation and opponent...and know when to withdraw.....

NT

Aye.

At one point, my players had tracked a wounded dragon for some time(SA to slay a dragon). When they finally caught up with it, they realized that that beast, wounded or not, would bite/smash through flesh and armour alike, so it's probably a better idea to drop the armour, which they did.
So, fighting dragons while wearing a shining suit is *not* a good idea.

[Shadeling]

Here is the revised book armor stats:


Type                                          /AV*       /CP Mod          /Other Mod

Leather Jack-sleeves                    /2            
Leather Jack-no sleeve                 /2
Chain Shirt-sleeves                      /4
Chain Shirt-no sleeves                 /4
Chain-Full                                   /4               /-2                / -1 move
Piecemeal plating                      /3-5         / -0 to-2 ea.         /varies
-Bracers or Gauuntlet                 /3
-Large Shoulder Cop                  /5              / -1**
-Shoulder and whole arm                 /4-5            /-1/-1**
-Knee Cop                                /3-5            /-1
Breast Plate (front/back)             /6              /-1
Plate-full no helm                       /6              /-3                   /-2 Move

Chainmail Coif                            /3               /-1 or 0***       /-1 Per
Pot Helm                                    /5                /-1                   /-1 Per
Full Helm                                    /6                /-2                   /-2 Per

Buckler Shield(hand)(TN6)            /4              
MEdium Round(TN5)                    /6                                     /-1 move
Medium Heater(TN5)                    /7                /-1                  /-2 move
Large Kite(TN5)                            /8                /-3                  /-3 move

*applies only to covered or protected areas
**applies when protecting sword arm
***when worn under any kind of helmet

Note in the revised, maximun negative modifier is -4 (not the -3/-5 from non-revised edition) for well made/well fitting.

EDIT: My formatting screwed up...I hope you can make it out ok.

[Ace]

Here is the revised book armor stats:

snip

Thanks for posting that

Anthony