High-Powered RoS, Oriental Styles, etc. (play report)

[Ben Lehman]

Hey--
 In early december, we converted my friend's D&D3E campaign to Riddle of Steel, which is the system that it always wanted to run under anyway.  First off, we had an absolute blast!  We also pushed the system in a great number of ways, and it occurred to me that some of them probably haven't been tried before...

First of all, the campaign was very high level at the time of conversion (higher level than extra A priorities would model), and so we ended up modelling characters on the fly -- We're talking around 50-60 attribute points, proficiencies upwards of 9-14, and lots of assorted gifts and flaws.  This is the place you would be after probably 4-5 years of a normal RoS game (about how long the game has run).

A problem we rapidly noticed is that it is MUCH better to have big attributes and small ones at character creation, rather than a more even spread, because of the way the advancement table works.  This is common in a lot of game systems, but that doesn't make it any less obnoxious.  This would definitely be something I'd like to see some (optional, of course) fixes for in later books.

Even at high level, the game played like a charm.  The one thing to watch out for is that spiritual attributes have less importance when the numbers are higher.  This didn't really worry us much in play, as our spirituals came up all the time, but a quick fix is to raise the "cap" on the attributes.  Highest dice pool: 50, for a ritual spell with a lot of SAs associated with it.  But, even then, we didn't manage to soak all the effects.  I imagine, at least for sorcery, dice pools could get up to 100 without statistical breakdown.  That's a conservative estimate, too.  Yay!

One problem we did run into was people with multiple high proficiencies -- because of the alternates, it just doesn't make sense to maintain two proficiencies at high level (you are better off just advancing one, and pulling the other one with alternates.)  We resolved this by allowing you to "drag" other proficiences at the cost of 1 SA each, as long as they were lower than the one you were raising.  It isn't a perfect fix, though, and we were hoping that Jake might have some insight.

Mass Combat rules -- we need them.  One of the characters was a great general, but he had a bunch of toys (True Leadership, Tactics, etc.) and nothing to play with them!  We are of the opinion that you could run Mass Combat much like you run ordinary combat (pools, techniques, initiative, etc.) but the details are elusive.

Oriental Weapons Rules -- we don't need them.  A good chunk of the game was spent in the setting's China analogue, which is ruled over by a Japan-analogue, so we had some serious encounters with samurai, etc.  The GM is a hard-core martial Tai-Chi practioner, as well as a decent kendoist, and one the players is trained in Ninjitsu, so we had some background in the field, and we had NO trouble using the standard RoS proficiencies for Eastern forms.  Conversions are below:

Daisho -- Case of Rapiers with somewhat "heavier" sword stats, emphasis on cutting.

Butterfly Swords -- Case of Rapiers, with more slashing emphasis.

Katana -- Longsword/Greatsword

Naginata -- Polearm

Nodachi -- Longsword/Greatsword, "heavier" stats, (there was some temptation to use doppelhander, but we decided against.)

Hard Style Unarmed -- Pugilism, but with access to Feint and Counter, which western fist-fighting should probably have anyway.

That was all we had to use in the game, but the point is -- the oriental schools really don't need to be statted seperately.  At the level of abstraction of RoS combat, they use essentially the same techniques as the western schools, and the swords are pretty much the same damn things.  This could be covered by a paragraph in TfoB, or perhaps a page if you wanted to elaborate.

There are a few key proficiences that are "missing," though.  Paired Dagger (or any small weapon: Kama, Club, etc.), Spear and Shield, Light Axe, Quarterstaff (fighting with two ends, rather than as a blunt polearm), etc.  We managed to duck these, but there absence was felt.

Sorcery-- We had a couple of stumbling blocks here.  First of all, aging as a part of sorcery is just not part of the setting (and isn't part of most people's settings, honestly) so we had to come up with other bunks for sorcery.  Fortunately, we didn't have to think long.
 Interestingly, each sorceror ended up with a different problem, which really gave their magic a unique flavor.  Some of these were:
1) One fellow took damage when he didn't soak his spell effects.  There was some sort of conversion table, but it was 1-1 at the lower levels.
2) Another character (the one I played), slowly lost control of his soul as he failed spell rolls.  Each time he failed, the Darkness which granted his power would require a... favor.  These were universally unpleasant, but made for some gorgeous scenes (such as one where he completed a ritual, there was a brilliant light, and then suddenly thousands of shadows swarmed in upon him, tearing at his body.)
3) There was a mage of the Jade Empire who, I'm pretty sure, had a magic powered by human sacrifice.  Essentially, every time she didn't soak a spell, some peasant somewhere had to die to restore the balance in her soul.

Needless to say, we didn't take these effects lightly ;-)  And sorcery played out really well.  If people aren't so keen on aging as a sorcery penalty, they might want to consider subbing in something else.

There was another problem with sorcery, though.  Essentially, the ability to "summon energy" is an important part of the setting's magic (yes, that includes fireballs.  Or, as they were presented in game, great bursts of white light that left nothing standing in their wake.)  We hedged this by making the Spiritual vagaries (summoning, binding, and banishment) effect energies as well (so you could use Summoning to make a light, or Banishment to call darkness) but that made the Summoning vagaries VASTLY more powerful than anything else (it's already vastly powerful).  I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about how to better resolve this...

Anyway, just thought I would mention this.  The game is really cool.  Thanks to Jake, et al, for creating it.

yrs--
--Ben

[toli]

Hey--

A problem we rapidly noticed is that it is MUCH better to have big attributes and small ones at character creation, rather than a more even spread, because of the way the advancement table works.  This is common in a lot of game systems, but that doesn't make it any less obnoxious.  This would definitely be something I'd like to see some (optional, of course) fixes for in later books.

Anyway, just thought I would mention this.  The game is really cool.  Thanks to Jake, et al, for creating it.

yrs--
--Ben

The PCs in my group all noticed the attribute thing right away.  Most of them started with a trait at 2 and then used SA's to buy it up to 4 before we even started playing.  

There is a difference, however, between starting from scatch and converting characters as you did.  By converting and creating 'high level' characters to begin with, you don't put the PCs through the potential dangers of having a few low stats at the beginning.  Having a low Soc to start with might allow you to start with a higher STR or AGL, but it also might get you into more unnecessary fights.  A low PER would make it more likely that some one will sneak up on you and kill you before that 8 STR comes into play.  

As for TROS, I can't really go back to other games.  I played a bit of RuneQuest recently.  I had a 90% to hit....he had a 90% to defend...the fight went on for ever and wasn't interesting.....combat just becomes some statistical battle based on who is more likely to hit.  There is no (or little) thought.  In TROS you can outwit your oppenent.

It has ruined me for all other games..NT

[Brian Leybourne]

Hey Ben, sounds like you guys have been having a blast with TROS, that's fantastic to hear.

Just a couple of comments on your individual points:

A problem we rapidly noticed is that it is MUCH better to have big attributes and small ones at character creation, rather than a more even spread

Yeah, that had occurred to me as well, but it's seldom a problem. It's possible/likely that I'm just blessed with fantastic players, but IME in TROS folk tend to assign attributes as they picture the character, rather than trying to mix/max and put the points where it'll cost them less to buy up some stats later. Still, it's a valid point. If it really bothered you, it would be easy enough to make the attribute advancement cost uniform, based on the total points you already have, but as I said, it doesn't seem to be an issue.

Mass Combat rules -- we need them. One of the characters was a great general, but he had a bunch of toys (True Leadership, Tactics, etc.) and nothing to play with them! We are of the opinion that you could run Mass Combat much like you run ordinary combat (pools, techniques, initiative, etc.) but the details are elusive.

I'm not sure what Jake has planned for mass combat, although I think he has said that TFOB will have rules for that.

Having said that, I have some rules for mass combat in TROS that I have been working on. They're not properly fleshed out at the moment, as I have had other TROS projects requiring my time, but I'll see if I can finish them off and post them somewhere.

Sorcery-- We had a couple of stumbling blocks here.

I love what you did with sorcery. One of the nifty things abvout TROS sorcery is that the aging effect can easily be substituted with almost anyhting else - the "how much do I age roll" would still be made, and the result is how much you are affected by... whatever. I actually kind of like the aging myself, but your examples of things that substituted for it were neat. Nice stuff.

I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we would love to hear more about your campaign and how it's playing etc.

Brian.

[Valamir]

Couple of notes about proficiencies.  The sections where it describes defaults are kind of scattered around in a number of different places and aren't really explicit, but here is what I've pieced together from them.

First you don't actually get the manuevers associated with a proficiency unless you actually own that proficiency (or if the maneuver is similiar to one you already have).  Thus, if I have Proficiency with ABC and I'm armed with XYZ and XYZ defaults to ABC-3, I can use XYZ with ABC-3 proficiency, but I can't use any of XYZ's proficiencies, unless the proficiency is one that ABC also has (with the exception of the basic attack form and basic parry).  What's less clear is whether you can use any of ABC's proficiencies.  We ruled that you can't (again unless they're the same) because it doesn't make sense that you could use a pole arm hook maneuver when defaulting to dagger.

Second several of the maneuvers don't kick in until you have at least a certain level in that proficiency.  I believe that this level is not the TOTAL level including defaults, but only the level you've actually purchased.  For example, if you have ABC at level 7 and XYZ defaults to ABC-3 you have XYZ at default level 4.   If you then buy 1 level of XYZ you have XYZ at level 5.  If you have a maneuver that is available for XYZ but only at level 3, I'd rule that you cannot use it, because while your level + default with XYZ is 5 you actual purchased level is only 1.

Third defaults only default from actual purchased levels.  For instance Great Sword defaults decently to dagger but poorly to Brawl.  Dagger defaults well to brawl.  Without this restriction it would be possible to max out my Great Sword, default dagger to Great Sword and then default Brawl to dagger using the level in dagger which I inherited from Great Sword.  With this rule Brawl only defaults to dagger to the extent that I purchased actual levels of dagger.  If I didn't or if I purchased only a couple, than brawl continues to default to Great Sword, until my actual levels of dagger get good enough.  BTW:  I STRONGLY recommend taking a pretty solid proficiency in dagger and not relying on the defaults.  Its useful in its own right and the brawling / wrestling defaults it gives are a huge benefit.

This serves 2 effects.  1) it really makes the defaults defaults rather than additional skill you get for free.  If I'm using a cut and thrust sword defaulting to my skill with the long sword, than I'm not usint the C&T the way it was designed, I'm trying to use it like I would a long sword.  Since the C&T can't do long sword moves as well as a long sword I suffer a penelty to my long sword level based on how similiar/dissimilar the styles are.  So the above really means that the master of all weapons, needs to actually have trained with all weapons, not with a single weapon getting the rest as defaults...he won't be nearly as effective as a trained fighter.

2) It also eliminates all of the bizarre cascading and stacking defaults adn circular defaults that would be necessary to keep track of.  Basically whatever proficiency you've spent the most points in is your master.  All other proficiency levels equal Default + Purchased.  Calculating Default levels and useable maneuvers can only come from the Purchased side of the equation.

[Ben Lehman]

Couple of notes about proficiencies.  The sections where it describes defaults are kind of scattered around in a number of different places and aren't really explicit, but here is what I've pieced together from them.
*nice summary of default proficiency rules as they stand snipped*

BL>  You are right, I'm pretty sure.  The thing is, this actually just makes our problem worse.  There are a couple of characters in the game that use a wide variety of weapons / styles (for instance, the general type uses long swords, paired kukris, lances, and pole-weapons.)  We think that this is cool.  We don't WANT to penalize him overmuch for it.
 My problem is that it is way TOO hard to be decently skilled (where, by "decently," I mean "really good") in two or more styles.  I would like it to be a little cheaper, SA wise, so that the above fighter doesn't lose out too much to the guy who only uses a Doppelhander.

Brian --  Thanks very much for your compliments.  I can post a little more about the game / characters / how the 4 session I played worked out, but sadly I've just gone across the country for school and so am not actively playing the game anymore.  Therefore, I really can't post up to date info.  I'm going to try to convince one of the guys to sign up for the forum and maybe give a more recent summary.

yrs--
--Ben

[Brian Leybourne]

And on top of all that, you can never get more than proficiency 6 by default. So, even if you have XYZ proficiency 20 (hey, you said it was a high poweered campaign), and ABC's default is XYZ-2, you still only get 6 in ABC.

Brian.

[Jake Norwood]

Ben-

Sounds like you had an incredible game! I really enjoyed reading about it (especially your take on alternate penalties for magic...too cool!).

For a game with such high levels of ability (the "right way" to do "heroic fantasy," IMO, *not* by making your hero able to take more punishment, but that's another thing...) I think tweaking the proficiency rules is reasonable. A few options:

-Raise the defaults to 10 or whatever works for your style of play.
-Your 1SA to keep them "caught up" is good.
-lower the cost of raising them at lower levels...maybe doing it on a curve proportional to your best proficiency.
-For every 5 points (or 3, or whatever) in your best proficiency (or in any proficiency?), add one to all the others (cross-training works wonders!)

Just some ideas. I'd love to see a more formal (maybe mini-supplement?) write-up of what you guys did in your conversions.

Jake

[Calder]

Hruhh...  So it took me long enough to get around to this.  When I converted Nocturne Imperium (the setting name) from d20 to TROS, I knew I had found the system the setting 'wanted' to be played on.  Major kudos to Jake and Brian.

But in the conversion, I still felt the need to make some changes to account for local flavor.  First off, I had a mess of fun with the magic system, the magic in the world, and different ways to play with it. Ben already mentioned a few...

-Magic as corruption.  One character tapped power from a tainted source from the Outside (somewhat Lovecraftian).  In many ways, he had the most unchecked potential, but even successful sorcery checks would increase the hold the power possessed over him, in ways either subtle or overt.  And every use of his power drew him closer to his inevitable fate (which was a doozy, but ultimately redemptive when it finally came.)
-Magic as primal force.  One character just channeled raw energy, exerting his will on the physical world as a fledgling god.  Since this was taxing for a mortal, magical failure expressed itself as either fatigue (if the margin of failure was low), or actual damage (if the margin was high).
-Magic as bearuacracy.  The sorcerers of the Oriental analogue of this world found a way to circumvent the extreme personal cost of sorcery by creating vast networks of magical energy fed by the hapless rank and file of the imperial peasantry, and accessed by various talismans.  Their magic was perhaps the least dangerous, but most limited by both social and arcane restrictions.
-Magic as the paranormal.  One character was followed around by the ghost of his dead mother.  Essentially, she was a disembodied, silent NPC with a Movement Vagary of 1, and a sorcery pool of 8.
-Magic as physical force.  Finally, I had people capable of creating machines that manipulated 'magic' as an actual physical force.  A sort of Tesla-esque Mad Science that also served as a sort of foundation for the actual physical nature of magic and sorcery in the game.  Artificers of this sort didn't need to be Gifted, just skilled in the extreme, but were also severly limited in what their machines could actually accomplish.

All in all, loads of fun.  And easy to adapt within the system.  We also had to address Oriental weapon styles, but as Ben pointed out, it was pretty much a non-issue for the most part.  My thoughts on that are all on my first post to this forum.
Guns were another factor in my game, but the conversion there was pretty easy.  Guns of various types and models were available depending on what part of the world you were in.  The ATN was easy, usually around 5 or 6, higher for the larger or more inaccurate guns.  Damage based on caliber, usually anywhere from 4 to 10.  And if it was the one of the rare weapons with a clip of some sort, reloading times were reduced to a count of 0 as long as rounds remained.  Otherwise, most guns had a reload count of 4 to 15, depending on the particular design.
The race priority of course had to be tweaked a bit, considering the specifics of the world.  But that was kind of unimportant, since for this campaign I was converting already existing characters and not using the priority system.  
Sheesh...  I could ramble on about my own little fantasy worlds.  But I should cut this short.  :)  Have a good one, all.

Calder