Death

[xiombarg]

Okay, even if you haven't before, please take a look at Unsung. In addition to the optional Enemy system, I've added a section entiled "Death" I particularly want comments on, as it addresses the idea of playing without a character.

[Mike Holmes]

Player character death is not the end of the game for the player. Unspent Gift points are associated with the player, not a particular character.

In fact, a player should not feel obligated to create a new character immediately. The player can continue to give Gifts and recieve and use Gift points even without a character. In fact, assuming all participants agree, it is possible to be a "player" of Unsung without a character, even from the start of a game, without being the GM. This role is especially suitable for players who want a role in the creation of the story, but not as intense a role at being a GM, or as specific a role as having a player character implies.

This strikes me as being sorta bass-ackwards in it's presentation. You're using RPG familiarity as a crutch I suspect to introduce the rule in a place where people might be more comfortable with it. The rule itself is fine, but perhaps the option not to play a character should be included in the part on chargen. And perhaps some rules for when and how to introduce a character after the action starts.

Death should always have impact in an Unsung game, and the players are encouraged to make use of Gift points to make this so. Note that impact is not the same thing as "meaning" -- it is possible for a character to have a "meaningless" death from a land-mine in the middle of a jungle, so long as another character -- a PC or a GMC that interacts regularly with the PCs -- is affected emotionally by it.

Hmm. I hate to see the term "encouraged" and then no mechanical follow up. Maybe Gift Points spent at the time of a Death count double or something. Something that would mechanically encourage their use.

The idea here is that player character death should enourage the examination of the morality of the conflict the characters are engaged in, or aid in setting the gritty tone of the game. The Rule of Jared is relevant here -- if a player character's death does not enhance the tone of the game or have a more specific emotional effect, don't bother to make the Meat check or whatever -- the character survives.

GM as final arbiter, I suspect? This should be made clear in the text, or better yet have some mechanical determinant instead of GM fiat. Perhaps if not player uses Gift Points at the death, it does not occur.

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Kirt,

Are you sure you're not introducing a much more significant feature than you planned? Mike's right - tossing in as potentially mind-throwing a recommendation in the middle of mechanics/etc about dying is jarring.

I suggest sticking with the idea that the player whose character dies keeps the Gift points and can keep spending them (I seem to recall recommending this idea a long time ago in a more theoretical debate in RPG theory). But the whole idea of these "not really GM, not really playing a character" players as an option from the git-go is wider than that and feels, to me, like you riffed on it right as you were writing.

As such, you need to decide not whether this technique is a good idea in general but rather whether it's what you want for Unsung.

Best,
Ron

[xiombarg]

As such, you need to decide not whether this technique is a good idea in general but rather whether it's what you want for Unsung.

Hmmm, good point. I was thinking it'd be a good option fro players who can't always make it, but considering the level of intensity and involvement I'm going for with Unsung, that might not be the way to go.

Yeah, it was riffed as I did it. A lot of Unsung evolved that way, originally. But I need to focus.

In other news, does anyone else feel, as Mike does, that the "emotional impact" part of PC death needs more game-mechanical support?

[xiombarg]

Okay, I've thought about what Mike and Ron said, and modified the Death section appropriately. Check it out for yourself, or I've summarized below.

I added a mechanic called the Final Gift. This lets you save your character, but only by adding a detail to the scene that risks a Lapse or a reduction in Responsiblity.

For example, let's say in a game set in the American Civil War, Joe's character Zeb (and the rest of his unit) is under heavy fire from Union troops. Zeb has just been hit by a gunshot, and failed his Meat Check, and is about to go Down -- and considering how many times Zeb was Tagged, he's unlikely to get back up again. Joe decides to invoke the Final Gift. He describes how Zeb saw the Union soldier aiming at him, and how he notices that Sue's character, John, is just close enough to grab and use as a human shield. No one vetos (Sue thinks it's interesting), and the GM invokes the Rule of Jared -- Zeb can automatically grab John and shield himself from the shot. Sue has to make a Meat check for John (who is now hit by the bullet), and Joe has to make a Reponsiblity Check -- probably at a penalty -- or lose Responsibility for using a comrade-at-arms to stop a bullet.

I like this a lot, but I still want comments on this. It prevents death, but only by reinforcing the other themes of the game. (I also like imagining the after-combat conversation between Zeb and John in the example above.)

[Mike Holmes]

Sounds like an interesting adjunct. But it's an either/or thing. If the player uses it, yes you get an interesting scene, but the death is avoided (in which case it's really not a "Final" gift, now is it; I like Final Price better in all cases). If the player does not use it, then the death occurs, and nothing special happens.

Isn't what was sought a method for having death occur, but having that be more meaningful? As opposed to avoiding death being meaningful?

What I'd do is keep the rule and get rid of this text:

The idea here is that player character death should enourage the examination of the morality of the conflict the characters are engaged in, or aid in setting the gritty tone of the game. The Rule of Jared is relevant here -- if a player character's death does not enhance the tone of the game or have a more specific emotional effect, don't bother to make the Meat check or whatever -- the character survives.

Always make it the player's choice (and the other participants only in that they can veto). I'd hate to be playing, have my character die in a way that I found meaningful, and then have the GM say, "No, not meaningful enough." Let the player be the sole arbiter of when it's meaningful enough. This also allows a player to abandon a character for no really good meaning, thus allowing him to create the "meanng of meaninglessness" and simultaneously transit to a new character or characterless play. His alternative is to create a stirring moment of ethically challenging survival. Cool.

No, what I was thinking of is something more like allowing players to gain Gift points at the character's death by honoring him somehow. A player could narrate a montage of the character's life. Another could soliloquize over the body about his feelings for his lost comrade. Another could narrate some effect on the soldier that killed the dead character. Whatever. Allow this to gain Gift Points for the players who make these things up. Including the player of the dead character. Really cool, for each Gift Point generated by a player who does not own the dead character, that player gains a Gift Point as well. So, if your character dies, and I do a montage, I get a Gift Point, and you do too.

That could be called the "Final Gift".  :-)  Basically it means that the next character starts with more Gift Points.

That said, I'm not sure what a Player with no character would do with Gift Points. With no character, the only uses that seem possible are to allow another PC to succeed at checks (except for Instinct checks). That doesn't seem too interesting. Perhaps a player with no character could be granted other uses for these points. I'm not sure, but I was thinking that they might have something to do with the notion of the "ghost" or memories ofthe dead character.

By the way, the following statement in development needs to be altered and probably moved to the Death section.

If a character dies, all unused Story Points are lost. However, at any point before the final Check or circumstance that kills the character, a Story Point can be turned into two Gift Points, which can be given to any player.

Mike

[xiombarg]

Good feedback, Mike. Good enough that I've implemented your suggestion. The original mechanic is now called the Last Chance, and the new mechanic you suggest is called the Final Gift.

Check it out.

Woo, instant feedback, instant change. Go creator-owned content! ;-D

[Mike Holmes]

Wow, I'm flattered.

I'm always leery of content changed so rapidly like that, however. Don't get me wrong, I hope the idea is as good as you apparently think it is. And I like it, too. But it was just brainstorming, and there might be problems with the interrelation with other mechanics, or other stuff. Give it some additional thought, and I'll bet you find at least one or two ways to improve it further. And/or playtest it ASAP to see if it does what it's supposed to.

I'd hate to have messed up your design with a random idea. :-(

That said, Unsung is quickly rising on *my* interest radar. :-)

Mike

[xiombarg]

I'd hate to have messed up your design with a random idea. :-(

Actually, you mainly articulated some misgivings I was having, and thinking along lines I was considering. Note that I added the GM and player veto to your mechanic to try and stamp out silly or gratuitous use of the rule.

And, yeah, more playtesting of Unsung is in order regardless. Tho I enourage other people to try it if they get a chance to before I do.

[xiombarg]

Addendum: Part of the reason I consider these changes harmless is they're variants on the Gifts rule, which has worked out well so far.