1st time Sorcerer Game- Need Help with my PCs!

[szilard]

Well, it really sounds like K doesn't want to be playing Sorceror, ultimately.

Sure. She could play her Sorceror-as-Vampire with its Parasite-as-Beast or whatever. She doesn't HAVE to act in ways that would cause her to loose humanity. She could try playing the innocent.

Would you enjoy playing this quasi-sorceror with her?

Stuart

[Jack Spencer Jr]

I'm going to agree with Stuart here in saying that it sounds like "K" really doesn't want to play Sorcerer. What I mean is, I had often read Ron's opinion of the World of Darkness series. It's in the thread I linked:

Let's say, for sake of discussion, that you and I agree that "demons" in the common superstition/religion sense of the word do not exist in real life. That they are pure metaphor for something that is itself very real, very troubling, and instantly mentally-accessible to nearly any human being. So when I say "my game is about summoning and commanding demons," two reactions can ensue. The trivial one is to pop the whole issue into denial and turn it into some adolescent, bogus thing like what White Wolf games do (and do, and do, most recently and most literally in Hunter: the Reckoning). The meaty one is to shudder. Just to shudder.

emphasis mine.

What I mean, and I'm going by Ron's quote here mostly, is that although White Wolf has a similar Humanity check system to Sorcerer and all of that, it really doesn't use it the same way. It's a much... dirtier process in Sorcerer. I think that's what I mean. You have to get your hands dirty in Sorcerer. VtM by comparasion is squeeky clean. So "K" being able to handle VtM does not in any way make me think she'd be game to playing Sorcerer. The comparasion is like looking at the original Conan story, vilent and blood-soaked as they as, and the Conan cartoon of a few years ago complete with bloodless sword fights. (It may not be that much of a difference, but I only mention this to illustrate the point)

The only reason I point this out is because this is potentially something that will hamper play. I'm not going to tell you to not allow "K" into the game, but you should at least be mindful of this.

[greyorm]

Sorcerer, page 78, "Sneaky Player Tricks"
"K" is trying to be a sneaky player...

The big note I'll put here is that the character has to have summoned and bound a demon at some point in pre-play, specifically the parasite she is hosting, you cannot be an Accidental Sorcerer.

For the sake of argument, let us say she didn't...trying to take this "innocent" angle. Then the parasite is summoned and bound and placed within her by another (a sorcerer). She is now at the whim of not only the parasite, but this sorcerer as well, because she is not a sorcerer, she is a host.

The parasite, being a demon, will take commands from its master -- not her, oh sure, it may do what she says when she wants it if she is the user of a specific power, but if the master says "Jump" and she doesn't "Jump," it may decide not to help her out when she needs it by withholding the use of its powers from her...or it may play along, and push her to rebel and Bind it instead (and if she doesn't go for that, it will definitely rebel).

Remember, a demon is always in control of the use of its powers -- in that they say whether they are available or not when the sorcerer says, "Go!"

Remember, the parasite will expect fulfillment of its Need, or the parasite rebels by not allowing access to its abilities. The sorcerer who summoned it into her may very well say, "You will fulfill its Need." She can choose to do so, or choose not to...the results of this are by her choice, and so Humanity checks are by her choice -- there's nothing making her do anything.

If she doesn't fulfill the parasite's Need and Desire, the parasite goes into Need and also starts rebelling -- cutting off access to its powers and using others (for which it is the user) when she doesn't want it to. Its master may come looking for her as well to take his "gift" away and leave a corpse behind. Make all this clear.

Ultimately, for this to be sorcerer play, you would have to push her into a corner where the outcome is either using sorcery, death or something worse.

Are you prepared to do that?

So she either willingly, consciously does sorcery to Banish the parasite (and pisses off the sorcerer), Bind the parasite to herself (again, pissing off the sorcerer), goes along with the task, or dies.

Remember that Sorcerer is about choices. I have a feeling that for this particular player, the result of an actual Sorcerer game will be her leaving the table ticked off because you "screwed her over." Be prepared for that, and discuss such happening at the outset, before play even begins.

Even skipping the whole "sorcerous master" angle (which I see no way to avoid...someone, somewhere summoned this creature and then bound it), the parasite cannot make the character do anything, so she can't "get away" with being innocent and not choosing actions that necessitate Humanity checks.

So, when she uses, "Oh, I didn't want it! Boo-hoo-hoo! I have to drink blood to live!" The only answer in Sorcerer play is thus, "Then kill yourself!"

[Jack Spencer Jr]

*golf clap for the Rev. Ravenscrye Grey Daegmorgan *

Brilliant, man. I didn't think of that angle, that K's character may not be a Sorcerer at all but just the host for the demon and the user of its power.

Charlie, listen to him and put his advice into effect in your game. Bloody hell, yeah!

[Uncle Dark]

The "master vampire" could be the sorcerer, with his/her demon having the Spawn power... K's character is host for a vampiric spawn.  Sure, it tweaks the spwan power a little, but what the hell...

Again, golf clap for Raven.  The key here is that the powers do not belong to K's character, they belong to the demon, and are ultimately under the command of the sorcerer.

Lon

[erithromycin]

Charlie, you're welcome. Regarding "The Sorcerer's Soul", it's your call. I've got it, I like it, but you don't need it. Certainly not in the same way that you'd need a Dungeon Master's Guide or the like. It's got more essays about stuff, some extra rules, but I found it most useful in helping me 'get' Sorcerer. I'm not entirely sure if it would help you with the situations you're dealing with - in many ways it serves as a condensation of the kind of discussion that we're having here, right now.

As for the current 'quasi-Sorcerer' thing that's going on, I'm intrigued, and have an idea - what if the whole process of "vampirism" is placing the Parasite that we've been discussing in someone, and leaving them to it? Now, they'll be a mite Sorcerous, maybe even a lot, but it places all sorts of intriguing moral conundrums in front of "K". Now, admittedly, to many of the WoD schooled players that I know, that would reek of GM manipulation to "screw them over", but as far as I'm concerned that's the unique Sorcerer difference. By which I mean you'd have to persuade her to agree, or find some other compromise.

So, here's my idea. The "master vampire" Contacts and Summons a Demon, a Parasite, whose Need is blood, and whose Desire is to have its Host Bind it. That's an awful lot of capitalised words. So now I'm wondering about how running with an 'unbound' Demon would work. Of course, it makes a fantastic Kicker. Now all you need to do is figure out how the Binding is meant to work, which means a reexamination of the nature of Sorcery.

It's certainly an interesting variation on the whole 'Apprentice' structure of indoctrination in Sorcery, and it might work. Still, I do need to ask, what kind of character does "C" have in mind?

To digress, Charlie, have you read any of Nancy A Collin's "Sonja Blue" series? Because this is what I'm reminded of now.

Regarding the Reverend's comments, I concur wholeheartedly, but I'm going to go a step further:

So, when she uses, "Oh, I didn't want it! Boo-hoo-hoo! I have to drink blood to live!" The only answer in Sorcerer play is thus, "Then kill yourself!"

Sounds like a potential Binding ritual to me...

- drew

[edit: I want, nay, need a button marked "Destroy All Hanging Tag"]

[erithromycin]

Two things:

Firstly, my new improved, capable of making thousands of julienne fries suggestion is to have the "master vampire" place the Parasite Demon within a Contain, whose domain happens to be limited to the character "K" will be playing. I'm not sure what would break the Contain, but it does introduce various potential themes and conflicts, not least the idea that where there are moral choices to be made is failing to make a choice a valid option? Does that make sense?

Secondly, Charlie, given that this thread is your hijacked baby, do you want to carry on with it?

- drew