Amazonian Zombies on a Far Distant Desert Planet!

[Drew Stevens]

Hrm.

Maybe it should just be made more clear in the rules what is and is not appropriate to Challenge.  Because the conotation of the word is such that people will tend to take it more personally- I'm not challenging your idea, I'm challenging you and your authority.  If there were some guidelines as to 'Good and appropriate to challenge' and 'Not so good to challenge on', it would possibly help ease this problem in the future.

Which actually brings up a direct corrolary question- are there things that shouldn't be challenged, or times when challenges are as disruptive to the story as failing to challenge can be?

[Tony Irwin]

Special kudos to your sneaky secret.  Completely within the spirit of Framing the scene, and completely why in my essay I mention that having the right to frame scenes is a very influential position to be in.

Yeah, a lot of the people I play with (I've regained my "active" status as a Universalis player - hooray!), I also play a lot of cards with, so we enjoy really digging into the mechanics to how the game works.

Its so interesting to read write-ups of other people's games. Once we discovered how to generate lots of coins we were also very worried that we'd broken the system but soon we discovered ways to balance that (and balance it just by playing the rules as written - no add ons).

Facts really changed the way I look at complications. Previously I'd be going into a complication thinking "How many coins can I win and keep for my little bank". Now I actually think in terms of "Exactly how many coins do I need to win in this in order to get my facts (and events and all the other stuff) into this game during the resolution".

Same goes for framing scenes.  I've played lots of games where no-one was bothered about who framed the scene. If you didn't have anything you especially wanted do then the default bid was 0, cos we figured "If I need to I can just take control". Now however, I and a couple of friends have twigged that framing a scene (and spending coins when resolving a conflict) is actually the most powerful phase of the game. Its important sometimes just to bid high to stop one of your buddies getting the chance to do something wicked!

Disclaimer: I know that all sounds terribly competitive as if we're playing for money rather than trying to make a story! But actually all that stuff about using facts to control the game, and also framing scenes is just a way of clarifying "This is what I want the story to be about, and as an equal partner in this game I'm willing to commit myself this much (in coins) to seeing it go this way". We do create great stories and have a wonderful time doing so! Honest!

Tony

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Drew & Tony & all,

I'm not sure how absolutely relevant this is, but in the recent classroom game that I set up, Challenges were very common. This may be a function of having so many people involved (19).

I'm bringing it up because no one seemed to take Challenges as a personal slur or authority-challenge, even when they were awfully committed to their own interpretation. In practice, I've found the Challenge mechanic to be far less competitive than I'd anticipated, not because people "avoid it by discussing our feelings" or some such garbage, but because it's a solid, clear way to work out what we (not you vs. me) are going to do.

Best,
Ron

[Valamir]

Hi Drew.  If you haven't yet, check out the following essay from the website and let me know if it addresses your concern.  Alot of the essays on the site (and this was one of them) were initially intended for the book, but were removed in the interest of brevity and keeping costs down (as this is the sort of info that only needs to be read once I figured web distributing it for free was more effective than charging for paper).

If Universalis ever makes a revised expanded version, I might include an appendix with these essays back in.


http://universalis.actionroll.com/challenges.htm

[Mike Holmes]

Here's a rule of thumb. Challenges are part of the game to help you get your way. No different in this than creating facts (which after all support Challenges), or starting Complications. As such, players should not feel offended. They are being informed, and should return the favor so that a better game is had by all.

Challenges are potentially very cost ineffective, so they won't get used used unless there is a good reason. You'll find that one well placed challenge can say a lot about where you want the story to go. You don't have to challenge each detail because players become aware of where you want things to go. And knowing that you're willing to Challenge, they'll try to keep within your dictates. Yes, there are terrible times to interrupt with a Challenge. If a player thinks that he's creating a master moment, just leave him be. Fix it later if absolutely neccessary using some workaround. In general I think that most players instincts work fine for this as long as they know this rule of thumb.

Fee Challenges are another matter. That's boosting things up a notch, and saying to the player that it's not just that you don't like what they've put out there, but you don't like the spirit of it either. This is not just an esthetic disagreement, but potentially a social one. Use with caution. But use when neccessary.

IOW, what Tony said.


Tony,

I've feared the day when I'd have proof positive that some player had exceeded my ability to play Universalis. I bow to Mr. Irwin's play prowess at this point. You sir have surpassed my level of Universalis skill. We need a new title. I'm thinking we make Tony the Universalis Shogun, until someone can prove that they can play better*.

I must now prepare for play so I can wrest the title back for myself! Robert, are you willing to acompany me on my journey abck to the summit? See you in Indie-Netgaming!

Mike

*We all know Ralph is the Universalis Deity, and not subject to comparisons.