Questions...Go figure!

[Ryuuko]

Hello all!

I've been trying to keep up with this forum (because this game and you guys are so darn cool) but it has been quite hard because of all the posts and time constraints so forgive me if these are some old questions being brought to the forefront.

First of all are there any defaults for wrestling, or any defaults to lances say from polearms or possibly other weapon styles?

Secondly when you are a landed nobility is the gold you get each year a profit that goes stright to you or do you still have to pay for your servants and such? Along those same lines do you get a furnished manor(within reason) or do you just get the lands and the serfs and you need to use your gold to outfit everything in your manor and also maybe outfit your servants and your garrison?[Please try and explain this one as fully as possible for what they get because it kinda matters, thanks]

I now this is probably a silly question but just to be clear, When you hire mercenary men do you need to supply them with weapons and or arrows and such or does the hire cost cover all expences associated with them. AKA they bring all their own stuff

This is all I have for now but i'm sure I forgot some things.

Thank you in advance

-Kevin Beyer

[Mordacc]

Well i dont have the book on hand so im not sure about the first two but the way i play as far as paying for mercenaries is that they bring all their own stuff up to a point.  I mean, have you ever read a book where a mercenary comes to the job unprepared and has to go out and buy stuff?  Nah, hes always got everything on hand.  now if there is something outlandish or out of the ordinary for a mercenary there might be an extra charge.  i also charge different prices for different jobs.  it would cost more to hire a mercenary to kill someone than to steal from them or protect you for example.  

Actually, on second thought, i dont think there are any defaults for lances, but im not sure.  i believe there are defaults for wrestling.

[Brian Leybourne]

Gidday Kevin, welcome to the forum.

Actually, I don't recall any of your specific questions being asked before, so you don't have to worry about that. As a general rule, though, we encourage folk to have a nosey through the old topics on the forum, there's some really good stuff out there, some of it hard to find these days :-) (A good place to start is the "new to the forum? Read this first" sticky post, although that's not all-inclusive of all the good stuff on here).

Defaults
According to the manual, most weapon styles default FROM wrestling, but none of them default to it. Now, in your own game you're of course free to do whatever you like, but that's just the way Jake sees it. I wasn't there when he wrote it, but I'm guessing the concept is that when you learn to wrestle and brawl with your hands, a lot of the techniques and moves are useful in other weapon/fighting styles, thus the default from Wrestling. The reverse isn't necessarily true though - just because I can swing a sword I don't really know how to grab someone and choke-hold them. That's IMO of course, and YMMV.

Lances? Well, there are no defaults from or to lances, and that really makes sense. Being able to sit straight, stay on, coax the horse the way you want to go, and hold a long stick straight while letting momentum do it's thing is totally different from being able to move about without the horse, and stick someone with the pointy end of something sharp. That's why no defaults. Again, Jake may contradict me here but I'm pretty sure I have it right - I used to fence and I also used to live on a farm with several horses, so I'm at least slightly knowledgable about the difference :-)

Landed Nobility
Check out table 7.4 in book seven, it explains that landed nobility spend (approx) 20% of their wealth each year on a Seneschal who manages their affairs. I would say that would cover a small staff (who the Seneschal pays from the money you give him), and a landed nobility title would most likely come with a mansion (unless you were awarded it in game and it was a split of someone elses land). The best answer here, of course, is: a) it would be different from country to country and b) do it how you like, it's your game now, we're just here to bounce ideas off of.

I would rule that you have to pay the cost of your own garrison, however. Table 7.5 in book 7 outlines the cost of guardsmen and suchlike per month, and yes, you have to outfit them as well. Being nobility is expensive, you know. :-)

Mercenaries
As for mercenaries, no, they would come with their own gear. Of course, the more you pay them, the better they are and the better gear they have. They're also a lot more expensive than hiring guardsmen.

Anyway, welcome again to the forum.

Brian.

[Aaron]

According to the manual, most weapon styles default FROM wrestling, but none of them default to it. Now, in your own game you're of course free to do whatever you like, but that's just the way Jake sees it. I wasn't there when he wrote it, but I'm guessing the concept is that when you learn to wrestle and brawl with your hands, a lot of the techniques and moves are useful in other weapon/fighting styles, thus the default from Wrestling. The reverse isn't necessarily true though - just because I can swing a sword I don't really know how to grab someone and choke-hold them. That's IMO of course, and YMMV

Other way around in the book I think.  :-)  Everything defaults to wrestling but nothing defaults from.

Lances? Well, there are no defaults from or to lances, and that really makes sense. Being able to sit straight, stay on, coax the horse the way you want to go, and hold a long stick straight while letting momentum do it's thing is totally different from being able to move about without the horse, and stick someone with the pointy end of something sharp. That's why no defaults. Again, Jake may contradict me here but I'm pretty sure I have it right - I used to fence and I also used to live on a farm with several horses, so I'm at least slightly knowledgable about the difference :-)

Brian.

Having a little trouble seeing why nothing defaults to lance myself.  Since all the other proficiencies can be used on foot or on horseback, within reason, how can using a lance be any more dissimilar than say using polearm proficiency on foot and a cut and thrust from horse back?  personaly I gave it a -5 default
Aaron

[Brian Leybourne]

According to the manual, most weapon styles default FROM wrestling, but none of them default to it.

Other way around in the book I think.  :-)  Everything defaults to wrestling but nothing defaults from.

You're wrong. Go back and read that section again. The proficiencies as listed are FROM, not TO.

Having a little trouble seeing why nothing defaults to lance myself.  Since all the other proficiencies can be used on foot or on horseback, within reason, how can using a lance be any more dissimilar than say using polearm proficiency on foot and a cut and thrust from horse back?  personaly I gave it a -5 default

They really don't correlate. Even using a sword or a mace from horseback is done very similarly to how you use them on the ground (but you're controlling the horse instead of running around). This is very different from using a lance (the only link being riding the horse, and that's covered by your Riding Skill). Pikes and Spears from horseback simply CANNOT be used as you would use them on the ground (short spears maybe), and if you tried it, I (as GM) would make you use Lance proficiency, because that's how you would have to use them.

Believe me, they're different. Using a lance is not like using an axe, or a sword, or anything else, be those others from the back of a horse or not.

Having said that, IYG, and if you like defaulting at -5 to a lance, then all power to you. You have to play the game the way that works for you.

Brian.

[Irmo]

I don't have the book here, so can't compare how I read what it says in there, I know however that one of them old Fechtbuecher states "All fencing comes from wrestling". Now, that didn't keep masters at arms from teaching armed combat first in some cases, but it frequently contained a gratuitous kick of bash with the fist, or the recommendation to go into unarmed combat at a certain point (e.g. a "durchlaufen" under the opponent's blade)

[Ryuuko]

Brian and the rest of you, thank you for the posts I really appreciate it! And yes Brian i've looked at the newbie section before I posted...great job by the way!

I do still have a couple other questions though. You say that none of the weapons default to wrestling but under all the weapon styles in my book anyway they have the default to wrestling under all the styles and under the wrestling style they have nothing listed after this. I though that the defaults listed after each weapon style default to the styles listed at that cost(pg 50 upper right hand paragraph)? Sorry I'm a little confused.

Secondly what do you use as a cost for barding? I was thinking that according to how you do fine quality and best quality items that standard barding would possibly be 5x the cost of whatever armor you want on the horse. Does this sound right?

Thank you,
Kevin

[Jake Norwood]

Ha, now I'm confused.

The defaults listed under each weapon are your default for other stuff. So, on p. 55, Pole Axe, if you have a Pole Axe Prof. of 7 then your default for C&T is 4, Dagger is 4, Wrestling is 4, and Pole-Arms is 6, etc. Make sense?

All proficiences default some to wrestling because it's assumed that a swordsman/etc. has learned to wrestle as part of the foundation Irmo talked about. I know lots (and I mean lots) of wrestlers that can't swing a sword, though.

Jake

[Bob Richter]

Ha, now I'm confused.

The defaults listed under each weapon are your default for other stuff. So, on p. 55, Pole Axe, if you have a Pole Axe Prof. of 7 then your default for C&T is 4, Dagger is 4, Wrestling is 4, and Pole-Arms is 6, etc. Make sense?

All proficiences default some to wrestling because it's assumed that a swordsman/etc. has learned to wrestle as part of the foundation Irmo talked about. I know lots (and I mean lots) of wrestlers that can't swing a sword, though.

Jake

So it's a very low default. :)

Actually, I learned to wrestle long before I had any formal training with swords. It does teach several key things, mostly in footwork. I should think about a -2 default to Pugilism or Dagger would be appropriate.

The way it is, you'd have to be kwazy to buy a Wrestling proficiency instead of just learning it as a part of another style. :)

[Brian Leybourne]

Ha, now I'm confused.

The defaults listed under each weapon are your default for other stuff. So, on p. 55, Pole Axe, if you have a Pole Axe Prof. of 7 then your default for C&T is 4, Dagger is 4, Wrestling is 4, and Pole-Arms is 6, etc. Make sense?

All proficiences default some to wrestling because it's assumed that a swordsman/etc. has learned to wrestle as part of the foundation Irmo talked about. I know lots (and I mean lots) of wrestlers that can't swing a sword, though.

Jake

Admittedly, I don't have the revised book yet, but unless you changed it, the original manual clearly says that the defaults are from the other listed proficiencies, not to them.

"Defaults are signified with a negative proficiency modifier based on which proficiency the default originates from" (Page 50). So it's either badly worded, or I'm stupid, or you changed it in revised :-)

Doing them FROM makes more sense IMO as well - when I'm running through the castle having just escaped from the dungeon and I find a greatsword (that I have no proficiency in), I can just look at the Greatsword proficiency page to see what I get in it from any other proficiencies I do have. If the proficiencies are TO, then I have to go through every proficiency listing in turn, looking at the greatsword entry for each one, and work out what default I get that way. Much more work.

Sigh. If that's the case it means the character generator needs a major change because all the proficiencies are from. Gah.

Oh well, not the first time I've looked stupid and it wont be the last. I still stand by my lance/horseback comments though :-)

Brian.

[Jake Norwood]

As I recall it is re-worded in the new edition. OTOH even your way works allright--the numbers are usually reciprocal to each other.

Jake

[Brian Leybourne]

That's cool, been looking forward to the revised book anyway, now I just have another change to check out :-)

Speaking of the CharGen, it's almost done, by the way. Creating, saving, editing characters etc is all completed (and spiffy, I'm especially proud of the Weyrth map that you mouse-over to get info on the countries, and click to select your nationality), I'm just finishing off the printing aspect and I'll change the weapon defaults, and V1 will be done. Should be next week sometime, touch wood.

Brian.

[Ashren Va'Hale]

as a wrestler now studying longsword I found certain things transfer well, on my first day of ARMA I was told to go and freeplay against another guy, I had no clue what to do with a sword so I just waited for him to do something then put my sword between his sword and my body and then went to grips as fast as I could. This was highly amusing since I never attacked with my sword and used it more like a long thin shield: block, block block.
As a side note many wrestling techniques work great in a sword fight such as the duck-under, firemans carry, arm drag and most trips and sweeps.

As a note, i did look up the revised version and the quote brian mentioned is in there and alone may be confusing, however if you check the following example in the next paragraph it shows how the defaults work quite clearly and states "defaults listed in the following section follow the weapon they originate from" ie defaults from great sword are listed under great sword.
I figured that may help for those who are using the first print, and good correction in the second go Jake.

[Ryuuko]

Great posts and finally I'm more clear on the proficiencies. Anyway, any ideas on my second question about barding costs?

Thanks, you guys are great!
-Kevin

[Damascus]

Kevin, just go ahead and give the guy free barding and a couple companies of cavalry, and let the lance default to 'Mass Weapons & Shields' at -1...

OK, maybe not.  Greetings all, I'm the reason Ryuuko is asking a lot of these questions.  With his able help I've (almost) completed my first ROS character.  Without boring you with details he is a landed noble Knight / Clergyman.  Currently, the aspect of the character I'm looking forward to playing the most is actually running the lands.  I may have to readjust my spending some (17 gold, 10 silver currently remaining in the coffers... goodbye 'fine' full plate) to have money left for Keep maintenance.  

Which brings me to my question / request.  If anyone out there can provide me with a rough idea of what a medieval Knight's properties would be composed of it would be a great help.  One influencing factor might be that the land has been entrusted to his family for at least two generations (I believe that was done, or am I wrong?).  I'm also thinking of establishing some things that the land and people may be well supplied with (arable lands, ores, naturally defensible terrain{one or two things, not all...resist munchkinism}) / talented in (agriculture, mining, metalsmithing, stone masonry, etc) and areas in which there may be deficiencies, possibly severe.  And yes, I realize that the particular country which the character lives in will determine some of the above, but I'd like to make it a truly unque holding instead of a microcosm of the home country.  

OK, I think that's just about enough of that, except to say that it's been a while since I've been psyched up about a character like I am now.  ROS has an excellent character creation system and world setting... I'm looking forward to claiming my half of the Xanarian Empire by whatever means neccessary.  Thanks guys.