Am I being a jerk?

[arxhon]

I'm just about done the prep for my TROS game. I'm trying to recapture the air of mystery that we all had the first time we played a game of D&D (or whatever your first system was). You know, before you knew all the stats for the monsters and what the magic items did: "A brass bottle stoppered with lead, huh? Well, either we'll get some wishes, the efreet will serve us or it will be insane and attack. We can handle a pissed off efreet, no problem. Give it to the henchman to open, just to be sure." I also am trying to emphasize a very gritty game, magic being something of awesome, wondrous power wielded by the servants of the Great Betrayer. Besides, I want to get the basics down before i start opening the floodgates of sorcery. I just need to get my hands on Acrobat to edit the character sheet....

I've gone and typed up the character creation information, taking out the mention of things like sorcerors, Fey and Siehe, and included as much of the other stuff like proficiencies and skills as i feel the players will need to play. This comes out to about 7 pages.

I've also gone and written up about 5 or 6 pages of setting information, based in a corner of the Cyrinthmeiran kingdom, bordering both Oustenreich and Gelure. The setting information is fairly exhaustive, including coinage, clothing, politics, local tales, etc. I'm probably not doing equipment tables though, that's too much.

The players will know nothing about magic (other than the Imperial Church views, i.e. magic=bad), Siehe (i've made mention of faeries and little men in the woods), the world (some legends and tales mention "mysterious cruel rulers in far off lands" and "lands of men covered in hair") or monster stats (haven't even mentioned monsters at all).

They will be able to create characters properly and intelligently, and have a good idea of what is going on in the duchy.

I 'm starting the campaign with stock guardsmen escorting the Duke's daughter, ambushing them with brigands (Geluroise funded, of course) and killing the PC's, then allowing them to build the characters they desire (not Fey, Siehe or Gifted, obviously). As time goes on, and if (more like when) somebody dies, i will begin to allow Gifted and Halfling characters.

I realize i can't prevent the players from purchasing their own copy (by special order, since our LGS doesn't carry it, but they probably will anyway, "just to see"), but i will provide the players with whatever information that we find they need when playing. I'm also going to explain to them my reasoning for not allowing them to read or borrow the book, for a little while anyway.  Once magic wielding PC's are running about, i won't care as much.

I guess what i'm wondering is, "Do you folks think i am being too tight-fisted with my players in regards to information?"

[tauman]

In a word, No. In fact, I think that keeping some of this information from your players will help them learn the system faster--they won't have so much to learn right away (and learning the nuances of combat is quite enough for starters). Plus, it will help add some of the mystery (maybe they'll actually run away from something you describe as big, ugly and scarey).

Steve Reich

[Mainboard]

I ALWAYS do the exact same thing, but a little harsher. I do not allow my players looking at GM information, and before someone joins my group they know that  the all the books are off limits if they wish to be in it and agree to this BEFORE they even meet my group!

To explain, everyone in the group has a understanding, each person has their own system that is exclusively theirs. It is a common agreement between all of us that a persons system is off limits unless the owner of that game has approved. This keeps the mystery of their game to the owner. And seeing all of the people in my group want to have fun and enjoy the game we tend to be harsh on new people that want to spoil the game for others and themselves. I mention this to help you understand, no you are not being a jerk. If people want to enjoy the game and your company then they will be ok with it.


P.S. Do you have any spare copies of that rules/player primer you are making arxhon? It sounds wonderful and I would like to use something like that as well....  :)

[arxhon]

if you pm me with your email, i'll send it your way.

[A.Neill]

I was/am in a similar situation. My first TRoS game is due to begin on Tuesday.

Setting; 1208AD, Small town on the edge of the Teutonic Knights' Prussian Territory.
Premise: Crusade; do the means justify the ends?

I still hadn't made up my mind on exactly how much sorcery to include in the game when one of the players (with no knowledge of the game) expressed an interest in playing someone who is studying the dark arts. Decision made. She now knows the sorcery rules. I have lost the sense of wonder that the player might experience on seeing the effects of magic in the game for the first time, but hopefully the trade off will be that she'll help flesh out how sorcery is governed in a pseudo-medieval setting.  I guess time will tell whether the trade off is worth it.

Alan.

[Ben]

I just need to get my hands on Acrobat to edit the character sheet....

What's wrong with the Character Sheet?

[arxhon]

The real reason i want to edit the sheet is to get rid of the word "spells" and anything dealing with sorcery, such as aging and the Sorcery attributes. These will have no purpose in my game for the time being, and i don't want the players asking about them, so it's a personal thing.

That said, since you asked what is wrong with the character sheet, i will tell you.

1. I fail to see the point in having Temporal and Mental Attributes listed in two places, once on each side of the sheet. A waste of space. The best spot is on the side with the "paper man' and armor and such....the space on the side with "Name" could be used to record more "Stuff".

2. 'Allies' is spelled incorrectly (spelled as 'alies'). A minor quibble....but the very first problem i noticed.

3. I don't understand the "Schooling" line. If by "Schooling" you mean 'weapon school', you could just slot this under the "Background & Notes".

4. Having a line for "Player's Name" is pointless. The player knows his own name ( :-P ), and if there is any confusion, the Seneschal can always say "Who's character is RandomDudeFace?"

5. Nationality and Homeland seem redundant.

6. By eliminating the lines for "Schooling" and "Player's Name", you have almost doubled the amount of space available for background and notes.

7. I'm not 100% sure, but there may not be enough space to record Maneuvers if the player has 2 weapons that are quite different. This remains to be confirmed in play, however.

That's really about it, actually. Most of this stuff is minor. The one that really bugs me is the duplication of Attributes.

If you could provide a rationale behind "Schooling", I will drop my complaint about that. Same goes for Nationality/Homeland.

The good things i see about the sheet (just so you know i'm not hacking on the sheet out of spite or something) is the ample space allotted for Skills. Good call. The space for wounds, armor and the paper man are nicely set up as well. Nice job on leaving the titles for the Pools open....I've seen a lot of character sheets go about putting Magic Points or whatever there without considering that there might be characters not using magic.

So there you have it. A quick and dirty dissection of the Sheets of Steel. :-)

[Jake Norwood]

The character sheet in the back of the book, you'll notice, is different than the one online. There's no sorcery info on it. The Attributes are listed on both sides so that you don't have to flip the sheet back and forth constantly through play. I think we fixed the spelling of Allies on the new sheet (but I'm not sure). There is a little bit of excessive specifics in the background section, but--as you said--it's a minor thing.

I'll try to get the updated charsheet up soon.

Jake

[arxhon]

Huh.....
You know what? I never even gave the sheet in the book more than a glance. I saw "Char. Cheet Download" on the website before i even bought the TROS book and grabbed that. I figured they were the same.

The Attributes are listed on both sides so that you don't have to flip the sheet back and forth constantly through play.

That kind of makes sense. Still bugs me tho...but that's just my opinion.

Actually, I'm glad the sheet in the book is the way it is. I tried mucking with acrobat writer (thanks Kazaa ;-) ), and some other "PDF-editing software" for a couple of hours and gave up, swearing.....(stupid barely editable PDF format grrrrr.....)

I'll be photocopying the one in the book . It's more suited to my purposes. :-)

[Brian Leybourne]

I'll try to get the updated charsheet up soon.

Hey Jake,

That's not a new update from the one you sent me two weeks ago, is it? I've been integrating that one into the chargen, don't want to have to start all over again :-)

Brian.

[Jake Norwood]

Brian-

It's not different, no. The "updated sheet" is the one I sent you and is the one in the book.

arxhon-

Sorry about the confusion. You can edit pdf's easily with adobe photoshop, or any other program that will let you save a pdf as another file type.

Jake

[Ben]

The real reason i want to edit the sheet is to get rid of the word "spells" and anything dealing with sorcery, such as aging and the Sorcery attributes. These will have no purpose in my game for the time being, and i don't want the players asking about them, so it's a personal thing.

As Jake said, the new sheets don't have any magic related elements. Hopefully he'll get those online soon for everyone.

1. I fail to see the point in having Temporal and Mental Attributes listed in two places, once on each side of the sheet. A waste of space. The best spot is on the side with the "paper man' and armor and such....the space on the side with "Name" could be used to record more "Stuff".

They have purpose on both sides. On the 'Action Side': They indirectly(or by 2nd hand) factor into the Pools, directly factor into the Derived ATTs and also just plain belong with the other ATTs in general. On the 'Character Side': They relate to the Skills being the source of dice from which they are rolled. Their on both sides because they have purpose on both sides, and too cut down on that flipping thing Jake mentioned.

2. 'Allies' is spelled incorrectly (spelled as 'alies'). A minor quibble....but the very first problem i noticed.

Fixed on the new sheets.

3. I don't understand the "Schooling" line. If by "Schooling" you mean 'weapon school', you could just slot this under the "Background & Notes".  

If you could provide a rationale behind "Schooling", I will drop my complaint about that. Same goes for Nationality/Homeland.

I agree and we don't, which is why it's not on the new sheets.

4. Having a line for "Player's Name" is pointless. The player knows his own name ( :-P ), and if there is any confusion, the Seneschal can always say "Who's character is RandomDudeFace?"  

In a few years, you'll be glad it's there.

5. Nationality and Homeland seem redundant.

Yeah, which is why Nationality alone made it to the new sheet.

6. By eliminating the lines for "Schooling" and "Player's Name", you have almost doubled the amount of space available for background and notes.

We noticed that happened when I nuked 'Homeland' and 'Schooling'
And a character sheet without a 'Player's Name' is like the role of Batman.

7. I'm not 100% sure, but there may not be enough space to record Maneuvers if the player has 2 weapons that are quite different. This remains to be confirmed in play, however.

With the removal of all things magical on the new sheets, more space opened up for those. New Sheets Good.

The good things i see about the sheet (just so you know i'm not hacking on the sheet out of spite or something) is the ample space allotted for Skills. Good call. The space for wounds, armor and the paper man are nicely set up as well. Nice job on leaving the titles for the Pools open....I've seen a lot of character sheets go about putting Magic Points or whatever there without considering that there might be characters not using magic.

Thanks, I thought it was a good idea.

That reminds me, Jake also needs to update the Sorcerer's Reference Sheet, to the one that has the three pools and ageing.

[Ben]

Actually, I'm glad the sheet in the book is the way it is. I tried mucking with acrobat writer (thanks Kazaa ;-) ), and some other "PDF-editing software" for a couple of hours and gave up, swearing.....(stupid barely editable PDF format grrrrr.....)

You can't edit the Sheets that way. I built them in a image editing program which was then imported as an image into the pdf. If you still want a crack at it, you'll have to import into an image editing program(ohh, like Adobe Photoshop or the like) and hack at it there.

[Jake Norwood]

Well, the new sheets are up. They're smaller downloads, too.

Ben-

Do you have the QS sheet ready? Email it to norwood@theriddleofsteel.net when you do.

Jake

[Lance D. Allen]

::sighs:: I really need to get an updated version of the rules. I've got two copies of the old book, but it seems that there are more updates than originally mentioned.

Which is to say, the sheet in the rulebook I have is the same as the .pdf I've got.