Game Writer's take heed--a bit of a rant.

[Bankuei]

I'm not against Tim or folks who say that indie-rpgs are too short.  I'm asking a legitimate question:

What is missing, what do you feel needs to be added, and why?

If its simply page count for "legitimacy reasons" or because it's expected, that's not a good enough answer.

If its content that would assist in playing, that's a fine answer and what content is that so folks can provide it?

Chris

[Ryan Wynne]

I'm not against Tim or folks who say that indie-rpgs are too short.  I'm asking a legitimate question:

What is missing, what do you feel needs to be added, and why?

If its simply page count for "legitimacy reasons" or because it's expected, that's not a good enough answer.

If its content that would assist in playing, that's a fine answer and what content is that so folks can provide it?

Chris

 Background, Ideas for game master, etc.  Perhaps even an sample adventure.

[Valamir]

Do you really mean to imply that on the basis of page count alone you'd be inclined to assume that those games were just "thrown together really quickly in order to make money" if you saw them for the first time offered for sale?

 What I am saying is, when I see a game that is $6-10 and 25-35 pages I won't give them a look because I don't think I am getting my money's worth.

  If a .pdf game is going to be priced at $6-10 it better have at least 100 pages or it won't get my money (And I am looking for .pdf games over the traditional store bought games).

But that's just what I'm asking.  Are you saying you wouldn't get your money's worth from Villains and Vigilantes?  From Met Alpha?  From Boot Hill?  I'm pretty sure these all cost in excess of $10 when initially released (and probably substantially more to pick up at auction today) yet are some of the definitive works of the hobby.  

Are you saying that when these came out you would have passed on them because they're too short and you wouldn't have gotten your money's worth?  If so, I'm saying you'd have missed out on some of the greatest games of all time.  Which should go along way to PROVING that page count as a measure of quality is a highly unreliable standard.

The question shouldn't be price per page that you paid.  But rather price per hour of enjoyment.

[Bankuei]

Background, Ideas for game master, etc. Perhaps even an sample adventure.

Most of the games which are really short are usually designed to play "your setting" so don't include background, although I can see having some sample backgrounds available as examples(I believe Paladin has 1 or 2).   Sample adventure, that's fine.  

Ideas for gamemaster?  Do you mean advice on how to run it?  Ways to construct adventures?  Can anyone give some specifics?

Chris

[Mike Holmes]

Yep.

I mean what ever happened to word of mouth and reviews, etc?

I mean if a friend of yours told you that the game was great, but then you heard that it was only 27 pages, would you assume that your friend was wrong? That there just couldn't be anything that could go on 27 pages that could be worth six measly bucks?

Not a mindset I can understand. I can't see length as being anything but a third or fourth tier criteria for purchase.


Hey, look there's a game here called deadEarth. Wow, it's like Gamma World, but more "realistic" (or so the advertising tells me), and hey, look, it's only $12 dollars for an absolutely huge manual. Well, better run right out and buy that baby.

Well, there are a couple of reviews that aren't so flattering about it. But I'm sure it's a great game anyhow. I mean with all that data on the effects of radiation, how could it be other than great!

Mike

[Ryan Wynne]

Ideas for gamemaster?  Do you mean advice on how to run it?  Ways to construct adventures?  Can anyone give some specifics?

Chris

 Yes, advice on how you run the game as well as how to construct adventures, things like that.

  As well as possiable sample adventures.

[Ryan Wynne]

But that's just what I'm asking.  Are you saying you wouldn't get your money's worth from Villains and Vigilantes?  From Met Alpha?  From Boot Hill?  I'm pretty sure these all cost in excess of $10 when initially released (and probably substantially more to pick up at auction today) yet are some of the definitive works of the hobby.

 None of the games you mention are part of my game collection so, this is a non issue.

Are you saying that when these came out you would have passed on them because they're too short and you wouldn't have gotten your money's worth?  If so, I'm saying you'd have missed out on some of the greatest games of all time.  Which should go along way to PROVING that page count as a measure of quality is a highly unreliable standard.

 They are the greatest games in YOUR opinion.  Because the page count is so low I would not even look at them.  I have plenty of games, all are fun and all give a great deal of good info.  

The question shouldn't be price per page that you paid.  But rather price per hour of enjoyment.

 For me, it is hour of enjoyment as well as price per page.  And I wont pay $6 for a game that is only 25 pages, because to me designers who try to charge $6 for 25 pages are trying to make money without really trying to put together a complete game.  25 pages is not a complete game.

[Ryan Wynne]

I mean if a friend of yours told you that the game was great, but then you heard that it was only 27 pages, would you assume that your friend was wrong? That there just couldn't be anything that could go on 27 pages that could be worth six measly bucks?

They can say it is the greatest game on earth, but for 6 dollars I am not getting my money's worth.  So the designer wouldn't get my money.

Not a mindset I can understand. I can't see length as being anything but a third or fourth tier criteria for purchase.

Mike

 My mindset is, I am not going to pay for a game that is thrown together and incomplete.  I am not going to pay a game designer who half ass creates a game and expects me to pay for a incomplete game.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Folks, the Forge is not a place merely for comparing opinions. I regard this activity much in the same way I regard comparing, say, skin lesions.

This thread did pose some very good questions, and here and there throughout it, there are some well-reasoned points of debate or inquiry.

I ask anyone who's interested in following up on these things to begin new threads, using quotes as starting points. This thread, however, is now closed.

Newcomers to the Forge, please be aware that when I close a thread, it's not to be posted to again. Thanks.

Best,
Ron

[Bankuei]

Funny that, I haven't heard the same complaint about mainstream rpgs, because I've got two boxes of books, most of which lack GM advice completely, or give little adventure material.  Rifts, Warhammmer Fantasy Roleplay, GURPS, Shadowrun...

Nope, I think the issue is raw cash to page count here...Unless someone can give me a concrete example of a difference between indie stuff and mainstream games that is quality otherwise, I'm going to assume that this is the issue whether folks want to own up to it or not.  

Let's look at the numbers here:  Standard writers earn about 10 cents to the word.  Rpg writers earn somewhere around 2 cents or less.  11,000 words x 2=22,000 cents or 220 dollars that Clinton should be earning somewhere along the line.  That's selling, oh, 22 copies(how're you doing Clinton?)  If he was being paid by full standards, that'd be: 1100 dollars, or 110 copies, which seems like a good, but still possible number for him to reach in terms of sales.  

But lets not dismiss this line of discussion completely.  Let's accept that folks do in fact, make sales judgements based off of page count.  What page count is acceptable, what page count is optimum for sales?  If you did need to fill out another 60-80 pages, what is the best(customer satisfaction, easy to do) way to do it?

I know several other companies use splats, monsters, characters, item lists and skill lists.  Would Donjon sell better if it had 30 pages of example characters/classes and another 30 pages of monsters, and 3 more adventures?

Chris

[Ron Edwards]

Chris clearly cross-posted with me, so that's all right.

No one else post again to this thread, please.

Best,
Ron

[Paganini]

Hope that clears things up.

Yup, all clear now! :)

[Ron Edwards]

Locked now. Shame on you, Nathan.

Best,
Ron