Dual-System games

[Michael Hopcroft]

I'm the sort of game designer who would rather borrow a good game system than design my own. Call me lazy, uncreative, or a grouchy slob -- I'd just rather concentrate on other things than the calculations required to balance a game system. To give you some idea how long I've been doing this, the very first game I ever designed twenty years ago used Basic Roleplaying.

Anyway, right now I have the problem of having a near-completed D20 manuscript in front of me and a FUDGE game on the same subject in need of much editing and revision. My solution? Release a single book with both game systems. Call it wimping out, but it combines the best of both open-system worlds IMHO.

Setting aside your feelings about open-ssytem rules, is it a good or bad idea in your opinion to try and put two game systems in one book? Will players get confused? Will they be able to choose the system they want easily between the two? I know that larger companies than mine have done it for supplements, but what about rulebooks? Will this work?

[Ben Morgan]

I would say it's all in how it's organized. Personally, I would present any and all setting-related material completely mechanics-free, then a section on each of the rules systems. FUDGE and d20 are prominent enough that I don't think it would be as much of a problem than if you were inventing two or more completely new systems.

One thing I can tell you right off is don't mix the two systems together in the same sections. I know I'd get confused.

-- Ben

[ADGBoss]

Would both Systems Appear in the same book? If so do something catchy with the layout of the systems and setting.

Otherwise you could put out two versions, one D20 and one Fudge, depending on the tastes of the person purchasing/downloading etc.


Sean
ADGBoss

[Rich Stokes]

I don't much care for multiple systems personally.  It tends to mean that you have to buy a bunch of material that you won't use.  The only examples I can think of in recent history tend to have their own system and a d20 version available seperately, but they tend to have mechaincs for both in the suppliments.  Since I don't like d20, I don't want to pay for d20 rules I'm not going to use.

I doubt I'm typical in this though.

[ThreeGee]

Hey Michael,

Personally, it depends on why I am buying the book. If it is about the setting, or some other relatively system-neutral thing, I have no problem with more than one system being given. On the other hand, when I am buying system tweaks (like most d20 products), having only half of the product be useful can be irksome, especially if the layout is poor.

For example, many of the Rokugan books are dual-statted. For the most part, it works because the books are about Rokugan, not the d20 or L5R systems. However, there are a few points where both mechanics are given, and either you cannot figure out how something works in one system or you realize that the other system gets something cool, but not the system you are using.

So, there you are. Release the system stuff separately, including mechanics for kewl powerz, but feel free to release the flavor stuff with npcs and the like statted in both systems.

Later,
Grant

[Jonathan Walton]

For the PDF version, why not just zip two different PDFs together and let the buyer decide which one to keep?  Price it like you would if you were selling either the D20 or Fudge version seperately, since no one's likely to get much use out of both systems.

As for print... that's another issue entirely.

[Thomas Tamblyn]

I've got to admit to a thoroughly irrational dislike to dual-stating.  Not only do I want a game to be complete, playable and interesting in the main book (if I need to buy a suplement to get the most out of a game, I don't buy the game) but I want it to have only what makes it complete playable and interesting.  Everything else is just baggage.

Like i said this is irrational and silly of me - as a matter of fat it hasn't actually influenced my buying decisions since nothing that happens to be dual-statted has yet interested me but...

I might be the only one that feels this way, but on the other hand I might not.  Bottom line, a game that has a system and sticks with it looks neat and tidy.

With pdf though, (here's where you really think I'm strange) I would have no problem there being different versions with different systems as has already been suggested.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Michael,

An idea (that you can feel free to borrow, but that I'm most likely using as well in a supplement I'm working on) is this:

Put non-mechanical information in the center of the page.
On the left side of each page, have a sidebar with one set of mechanics.
On the right side, have another sidebar with the other set of mechanics.

In my case, I'm writing adventures for d20 and other game systems. Laid out, I really like the effect of seeing text in the middle and scanning one side of each page for the stats I need.

[Andrew Martin]

I know that larger companies than mine have done it for supplements, but what about rulebooks?

I believe that the rules on using D20 are structured so that rulebooks using D20 must force the players to buy the D20 Player's Hand Book. This is done, I believe by forbidding D20 supplements from carrying character generation information. So if your rule book explains how to generate characters using Fudge, it's in violation of the D20 licence, I believe.

[Rich Stokes]

[So if your rule book explains how to generate characters using Fudge, it's in violation of the D20 licence, I believe.

DISCLAIMER: I hate the D20 system and have never really thought about publishing for it.  Therefore I'm not the best person to ask about this, but I have read the SRD and the terms contract and the FAQs etc.  Know your enemy and all that.  There used to be a pretty straightforward faq on the WOTC website outlining exactly what you could or couldn't do in a d20 trademarked product, but I can't find it or it's gone.  Also I'm not a lawyer.

My impression was that you couldn't use the d20 logo for the system parts of you game if it contains character creation or advancement rules.  But I think that this only applies to use of d20 SRD stuff, which according to their FAQ I think has to be clearly set aside from any original material you put in the book or "all your copyright are belong to Wizards".

So as far as I can tell, any book can contain any d20 SRD stuff, plus anything you want to make up apart from how to create and advance characters for the d20 system.  So I don't think any FUDGE stuff could really be considered a violation aof that.

Another thing to remember is that despite being ex TSR and owned by Hasbro, Wizards isn't actually an "evil" company and don't seem to have acted THAT badly.  I don't think they sue peopel unless people take the piss with the SRD vs D&D, which to be fair a fem people did.  Having Fudge rules for this stuff certainly doesn't go against the spirit of the d20 license, and as such I think there would be no problems.  OTOH I would want an assurance that WotC COULDN'T sue me, rather than an understanding that they WOULDN'T before I thought about publishing anything.

But then I wouldn't publish a d20 book anyway ;)