The Glowing Staff Problem, faery magic, etc.

[Bob Richter]

Vision 3 doesn't say or imply that you can see things on a molecular level.  This was something I had meant to ask about before- is there some offical errata that lead you to this conclusion or is it just the popular interpetation?

It doesn't say it, but it does imply it. You'll notice the other levels of Vision list a maximum magnification.  Vision 3 doesn't and goes on to say that you can see ANYTHING, implying that infinite magnification is available, yes?

I think that I'll just use Conquer to make the yokels impressed by everything I do ;>

Not if there's more than MA yokels, nor if any of them are particularly strong-minded, you won't.

Conquer has its abilities, and it has its limits. Glamour is much better for impressing large crowds.

[Brian Leybourne]

Guys.. this "discussion" is going to go nowhere until you can at least agree on some common ground.

Some of you are arguing on the basis that Glamour is "mind affecting illusion" only, and others are arguing based on glamour being "fae magic that can affect reality but only for a short while".

What we end up with is two unrelated points of view, and each side arguing the merits of their point of view without really acknowledging the other. This makes the thread a bit pointless really, may as well be pissing in the wind.

The whole "Glamour is this" "No it's not, it's this" "you're wrong" "no, you're wrong" is a bit tiresome. How about everyone starts off fresh by acknowledging the other side and discussing *that*, or just agree to disagree and drop the whole thing. There are clearly folk on both sides who are not going to be swayed here.

Brian.

[Ashren Va'Hale]

eloquently stated brian... and out of curiousity, which side do people fall on in this difference of opinion? Myself, I lean more towards the temporary alteration of reality.

[arxhon]

I politely disagree with the "alteration of reality" concept, for reasons explained below.

I am more on the side of "mind affecting only".

If Glamour affected reality, even briefly, then by extension, one could make the duration constant, and thereby make the temporary alteration permanent. This would make Sculpture, Growth and Conquer redundant.

Please, let's stay away from "perceptiopn IS reality", or this argument will bog down into a philosophical debate on the nature of reality on Weyrth.

[redcrow]

Unless a particular games rules for illusions say otherwise, I've always treated illusions like a Mirage or Hologram.  The illusion isn't just inside the targets mind, but an external image that tries to fool the senses of all targets within range.  A target believes its real if it fools their senses.  For an image to be physically seen it must create or affect light.  

Though I'm not too keen on the idea of it creating a real effect that is later undone, such as an illusion actually burning an object then later it is unburned.  I prefer that it simply appears to have burned, but in actuality the object was never harmed.  Thats just my opinion, though.

[Ashren Va'Hale]

redcrow, the only times I let it affect reality is when it fools all the senses, because if it fools all the senses perfectly how different is it really from reality? If you see the wall, feel the wall, taste the wall and even smell the wall... your companions will wonder why you are tasting and smelling a wall.... in other words would it be different from a real wall? if you run into it you will feel like you ran into a wall, if you kick it it will feel like you kicked a wall... if you cut it with your sword it would feel like you just tried to cut a wall with your sword. I hope this clarifies my stance.

[redcrow]

redcrow, the only times I let it affect reality is when it fools all the senses, because if it fools all the senses perfectly how different is it really from reality? If you see the wall, feel the wall, taste the wall and even smell the wall... your companions will wonder why you are tasting and smelling a wall.... in other words would it be different from a real wall? if you run into it you will feel like you ran into a wall, if you kick it it will feel like you kicked a wall... if you cut it with your sword it would feel like you just tried to cut a wall with your sword. I hope this clarifies my stance.

Sure, and I agree with this to a point.  However, what happens when one target's senses are fooled by the illusion of a wall, but another's senses are not?  Additionally, I would posit that the more senses an illusion seeks to fool, the more difficult it would be to create.  Glamour seems like a fairly simple illusion, so most likely it has nothing more than a sight component and possibly sound.   Thats just my opinion, though.

[Ashren Va'Hale]

I always figured the illusion to affect the environment in general, target 0 or 1, it affects all who can "participate" if you get my drift. Since my view of glamour is that it affects all who can participate while yours is mental based we have a problem reconciling our views based on your point. As for it being harder to fool multiple senses I think you are right, I use the levels of the vagary to represent this, based on the realism component of the vagary, on page 106 of revised edition it states "The illusion perfectly simulates reality."
This is really the basis for all of what I have been saying about glamour.
read all the descriptions of what glamour does at level three and you will understand exactly what I mean.

[Mayhem1979]

From the rules in the book, I always got the impression that illusion effected everybody within range of whatever senses are being effected... if your doing it so you're effecting only one individual by messing with his mind then by definition, you're using the conquer vagary.

[Callan S.]

Why does the idea of glamour seem to slip into 'it tricks your mind' territory again. Obviously you can play that way, but from what I've read here in other posts, its akin to saying telekinesis is just magic telling your mind somthing is being lifted, and it isn't really.

Not at all. Glamour is the magic of illusion. It is supposed to trick the senses. Saying that it does anything more (or less) than that is rather like saying telekinesis can be used to make direct mind-to-mind contact with another being (that would be telepathy, actually.)

Well, that's not really what Jake mentions. Not that he'll send a hit squad around if you play it any other way, of course! :)

I think the idea isn't that Glamour tricks the senses, it instead tricks reality itself. Ie, you can cross a bridge made of glamour...if it were just tricking the senses, well, although you'd feel all safe on a bridge, you'd actually be a broken heap at the bottom. Conquer does this sort of fun more directly, or so I'm lead to believe, so its not so much Glamours area.

Mind you, it can be used as just sensory illusion, whatever works. I'm just running off one of the authors spins on it, which isn't concrete for everyone, of course.

As Brian said, why don't people just say which side of the table their on, when they make a post. That way, if your on the other side on how it works, you know just to skip that post...you can't really add to it, when you don't agree with its underlying principles.

And fortunately, it being an RPG, we don't have to all use the same underlying principles. :)

[Bob Richter]

Why does the idea of glamour seem to slip into 'it tricks your mind' territory again. Obviously you can play that way, but from what I've read here in other posts, its akin to saying telekinesis is just magic telling your mind somthing is being lifted, and it isn't really.

Not at all. Glamour is the magic of illusion. It is supposed to trick the senses. Saying that it does anything more (or less) than that is rather like saying telekinesis can be used to make direct mind-to-mind contact with another being (that would be telepathy, actually.)

Well, that's not really what Jake mentions. Not that he'll send a hit squad around if you play it any other way, of course! :)

I think the idea isn't that Glamour tricks the senses, it instead tricks reality itself. Ie, you can cross a bridge made of glamour...if it were just tricking the senses, well, although you'd feel all safe on a bridge, you'd actually be a broken heap at the bottom. Conquer does this sort of fun more directly, or so I'm lead to believe, so its not so much Glamours area.

Mind you, it can be used as just sensory illusion, whatever works. I'm just running off one of the authors spins on it, which isn't concrete for everyone, of course.

As Brian said, why don't people just say which side of the table their on, when they make a post. That way, if your on the other side on how it works, you know just to skip that post...you can't really add to it, when you don't agree with its underlying principles.

And fortunately, it being an RPG, we don't have to all use the same underlying principles. :)

If a Glamour can allow you to cross a river upon a stone bridge, Sculpture is redundant.

There IS a middle ground between the view that makes Sculpture, Movement, and Growth meaningless by overpowering Glamour and the view that makes Growth replicated and exceeded by Conquer, and it is this:

Glamour is the magic of illusion (this is from the book, folks, not my own silly opinion.)

The Glamour vagary is used to create glamours.
Anyone interacting with said glamours are led to believe that they are seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, or smelling whatever the glamour is intended to simulate.

Better yet, it can be a perfectly interactive illusion. A Glamour-sword might strike a man down with the belief that he is critically injured (or even dead.) A glamour torch might set an entire villiage ablaze...

...but when the glamour subsides, it will become obvious that what has passed before has been nothing but illusion.

Of course, it's really more or less a mental thing. Glamour bridges can't really support your weight. Glamour photons can't really light a room (or burn a hole through someone while boiling his insides.) The rule is that Glamour has *NO* physical effects, lasting or otherwise, save the ones caused by the living mind.

Conquer is considerably more limited in this respect. First, you have to target a mind (Glamour lacks this requirement.) automatically raising your CTN by 3. Second, you can NEVER effect more than ten targets at once with Conquer.  (while a single glamour could easily effect ten thousand or more.) Conquer effects will also have NO interactivity, which could easily lead the target of a conquer-illusion to question what he's being led to believe.

Conquer is fun.

But you ought to see what a ten-foot-tall Glamour-Demon does to your average army. :)

[Valamir]

Quite Noon.  Jake uses Glamour the way it is used in Pendragon.  Pendragon is VERY explicit about the reality tricking (i.e. not merely mind game illusion) nature of glamour.

A Glamour bridge in Pendragon absolutely CAN support your weight it is every bit as real as a real bridge...while it lasts.  Its Fey Reality...and Fey Reality isn't supposed to make sense when it interacts with our reality.

The TROS text regarding Glamour isn't unfortuneately as clearly laid out.  Giving rise to these disagreements.  As you say, fortuneately we can all play the way we want.  But it strikes me that if it was meant to be "Illusion" the name of the vagary would have been "Illusion"

[Bob Richter]

Quite Noon.  Jake uses Glamour the way it is used in Pendragon.  Pendragon is VERY explicit about the reality tricking (i.e. not merely mind game illusion) nature of glamour.

A Glamour bridge in Pendragon absolutely CAN support your weight it is every bit as real as a real bridge...while it lasts.  Its Fey Reality...and Fey Reality isn't supposed to make sense when it interacts with our reality.

The TROS text regarding Glamour isn't unfortuneately as clearly laid out.  Giving rise to these disagreements.  As you say, fortuneately we can all play the way we want.  But it strikes me that if it was meant to be "Illusion" the name of the vagary would have been "Illusion"

On the other hand, used that way, it actually makes the three physical vagaries entirely useless. Effectively, you end up with one vagary that does all the jobs of four(+) vagaries. That's disgusting. It's way overpowered. Even if you don't think in terms of Game Balance, isn't that even SLIGHTLY disturbing?

It disturbs me, thus why Glamour will never take on this super-powered definition in my games.

By the way, Illusion and Glamour are sometimes synonyms, whenever Glamour is meant more specifically than just "Magic Spell."