Dark Sun racial packages

[Eamon Voss]

No psionics and no priests??

I'm floored. My interest in this thread just evaporated, man. Sorry. I don't see "Dark Sun" in anything without psionics and pyramid-priests.

editing this in moments later: Well, that was kind of harsh. Let me put it differently: as a self-described "old school Dark Sun fan," why are you removing the psionics and priests?

I agree with Ron.  Normally I hate mixing magic and psionics, but Dark Sun pulls it off.  A kewl setting that I've sadly only seen run really, really badly.

[Dave Turner]

No psionics and no priests??

I'm floored. My interest in this thread just evaporated, man. Sorry. I don't see "Dark Sun" in anything without psionics and pyramid-priests.

Best,
Ron

editing this in moments later: Well, that was kind of harsh. Let me put it differently: as a self-described "old school Dark Sun fan," why are you removing the psionics and priests?

LOL, don't sweat it, Ron.  My skin is much thicker than that.  Ask Sorensen.  ;-)

The reason for dropping psionics is that I can't think of a good way to implement them in TROS that doesn't come off as "sorcery lite".  The thread that got me thinking about this had a suggestion for making psionics a skill package.  As I tossed around some preliminary ideas for a psionics-as-skills system, I found that I couldn't come up with anything that didn't seem like a pale echo of sorcery.  

So I thought about simply expanding the notion of "sorcery" to include both magical and/or psionic abilities.  So one "sorcerer" wields magical energy to do his thing and another "sorcerer" does it with mental energy.  Both would use the same TROS sorcery system.  This seemed like an OK idea, but it suddenly made sorcery seem a lot more common.  This, in turn, started to give me a bit of a high-fantasy vibe.  I've got nothing against high-fantasy in general, but I think that one of the benefits of TROS is that it seems to encourage a low-fantasy feel which fits Dark Sun better, IMO.  I've not completely moved away from the idea of "psionics as sorcery", but there's something that's holding me back a bit.

As for the priests, I didn't decide to get rid of the elemental priests, only their magical powers.  Again, this is done in the service of keeping the magic level of the game down.  Priests still venerate the elements and the supernatural creatures of those planes (elementals and elemental beings) still exist, just as demons exist in Weyrth.  The priests just don't receive spell-casting powers from the elementals.  Instead, I'm thinking of a kind of summoning-based relationship, wherein the priests bargain with the elementals for services in exchange for tribute.  

The more I type, however, the more I'm starting to think that keeping the magic low maybe isn't the right way to go.  Why not let priests/druids have sorcery as well, suitably tweaked for priestly flavor?  My original intent in doing a TROS/Dark Sun blend wasn't to perform a perfect translation of the D&D version of Dark Sun into a TROS version (hence my willingness to chuck psionics and priestly magic).  My thoughts have run more towards a primarily TROS-based game, using the geography, history, and cultures of Athas.  When making decisions regarding inconsistencies between the two, I've erred on the side of staying true to TROS.  

How would you do it, Ron (and others)?  Since the Internet is a poor conveyor of tone, I'll clarify that I'm asking sincerely, not sarcastically.  I welcome criticism, since part of the reason for posting this publicly is to receive it.  Don't be shy.  :-)

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Dave,

Ah-ha! I thought it was due to system-first!

[Rubs hands]

Psionics: use the Sorcery rules; it's a new Proficiency and requires a racial category (probably C or thereabouts). Permit the Summoning, Motion, and Glamor vagaries (off the top of my head), with "special effects" limited through shared understanding of the genre. Replace aging with "mental overload" damage, like in Akira or other anime.

Defilers: use the Sorcery rules; again, a distinct Proficiency and make it A or B. No limits on Vagaries, but the Defiler Pool is limited to 6. Yup! These guys are weak; they have to use SA's and cunning to be as effective as a psionicist. Replace aging with some sort of occultist backlash, perhaps in terms of a second spell of the GM's devising that goes off in addition to the intended spell, to the tune of the dice of "aging."

Priests: ahhh ... OK, this is interesting. Obviously, again using the Sorcery rules, You'll have to think in terms of magic (a) deriving from the pyramids and (b) having specific Vagaries in which it excels. The former might be in terms of Priest-Pool bonus dice, or perhaps making the priests' Priest-Pool accessible in the first place. I like the latter better, in which case to do magic away from the temples, they'd have to rely on items that were created in the temples. I'd probably switch out the aging for simple energy-backlash damage, using the general-damage - the idea is that the energy from the pyramids reverberates out of control.

Last thought: here's my non-canonical Dark Sun mod - drop the non-human races. Oh, do have cannibal midgets and great big hulking dudes and reedy nomads ... but don't call them "halflings," "half-giants," and "elves." All that was, in my view, a lame-ass way to D&D-ize what was obviously an original RPG setting before TSR bought it.

All of the above is just stream-of-consciousness. I'd have to sit down with old boxed set and do some scribbling to come up with something better ... but I have no doubt that it would be easy and fun to do.

Best,
Ron

[Dave Turner]

You didn't waste any time, Ron!  :-)

Psionics: use the Sorcery rules; it's a new Proficiency and requires a racial category (probably C or thereabouts). Permit the Summoning, Motion, and Glamor vagaries (off the top of my head), with "special effects" limited through shared understanding of the genre. Replace aging with "mental overload" damage, like in Akira or other anime.

Vision and Conquer (to simulate telepathy) are also natural candidates for psionics.  I had considered mental backlash damage as an alternative to aging.  Maybe two months of "aging" translates into a level of generic damage?

Defilers: use the Sorcery rules; again, a distinct Proficiency and make it A or B. No limits on Vagaries, but the Defiler Pool is limited to 6. Yup! These guys are weak; they have to use SA's and cunning to be as effective as a psionicist. Replace aging with some sort of occultist backlash, perhaps in terms of a second spell of the GM's devising that goes off in addition to the intended spell, to the tune of the dice of "aging."

I see defiling/preserving magic a bit differently.  Why limit the pool to 6 dice?  The reason that defiling is so tempting is because it can be so powerful.  It's the reason that Athas was turned to dust, not psionics.  If psionics were more powerful than defiling, then the most powerful psions on Athas could have stopped the defilement from occurring, no?

As for the backlash, there was an excellent suggestion you might have missed on the previous Dark Sun thread in this forum.  Give every sorcerer the ability to choose whether or not they wish to defile every time they cast a spell.  Those who wish to defile cause the usual destruction of plant life that defilers are known for.  Those who choose to preserve take regular TROS aging damage.  This makes the decision to defile a moral one and allows PCs to make interesting choices within the game as they cast their magic.

Priests: ahhh ... OK, this is interesting. Obviously, again using the Sorcery rules, You'll have to think in terms of magic (a) deriving from the pyramids and (b) having specific Vagaries in which it excels. The former might be in terms of Priest-Pool bonus dice, or perhaps making the priests' Priest-Pool accessible in the first place. I like the latter better, in which case to do magic away from the temples, they'd have to rely on items that were created in the temples. I'd probably switch out the aging for simple energy-backlash damage, using the general-damage - the idea is that the energy from the pyramids reverberates out of control.

I think you've been away from the boxed set too long, since this is certainly a different description of the Athasian priestly magic that I know.  ;-)

Priests in Dark Sun have no inherent connection to pyramids as you describe.  They worked just like D&D priests, only their patrons were elemental lords and their spell domains were a bit more restrictive.  Same for druids, whose patron deity was a Spirit of the Land rather than an elemental lord.

As far as their magical backlash is concerned, maybe there's some way of linking it to an elemental theme?  There could be some kind of "elemental backlash" or they could inadvertently damage nearby elements?  Maybe they turn nearby soil sterile, or water that everyone is carrying evaporates, or something (or someone) nearby bursts into flame?  The elemental backlash damage option is clearly the easiest one to implement.

Last thought: here's my non-canonical Dark Sun mod - drop the non-human races. Oh, do have cannibal midgets and great big hulking dudes and reedy nomads ... but don't call them "halflings," "half-giants," and "elves." All that was, in my view, a lame-ass way to D&D-ize what was obviously an original RPG setting before TSR bought it.

Interesting notion.  Maybe they should just be presented as "human racial packages"?  Drop the names as you suggest, but keep the game bonuses and penalties (perhaps with some tweaks)?  I'd still need to find a way to include thri-kreen.  Maybe leave them at Priority A and as clearly non-human?

I must admit that I'm quickly swinging around to a less system-first approach.  Once I free myself of trying to shoehorn Dark Sun into the TROS mold, it does flow pretty easily.  Thanks for some good suggestions, Ron.  :-)

[Matt Snyder]

Hi Dave,


Last thought: here's my non-canonical Dark Sun mod - drop the non-human races. Oh, do have cannibal midgets and great big hulking dudes and reedy nomads ... but don't call them "halflings," "half-giants," and "elves." All that was, in my view, a lame-ass way to D&D-ize what was obviously an original RPG setting before TSR bought it.

My memory's very hazy (and therefore as likely wrong as it is right), but I recall reading that Dark Sun's races, and in fact entire concept was not a prepared RPG setting picked up by TSR, but rather it was the result of a TSR thought experiment -- a "What if" of D&D turned inside-out. Taking the "opposite" or other variations on the D&D tropes to see what results. I have always considered DS a reactionary take on D&D Fantasy ... by D&D-ers, and never something that existed outside of that. It was like radicalism-from-within.

I actually really liked Dark Sun, and ROS is a nice, gritty fit. But you're right -- no Psionisicist or no Templars means no Dark Sun!

[Dave Turner]

I actually really liked Dark Sun, and ROS is a nice, gritty fit. But you're right -- no Psionisicist or no Templars means no Dark Sun!

My initial feeling had been to keep templars, but to make them very powerful bureaucrats without the magical power derived from their sorcerer-king/queen.  But if I'm throwing the shackles off and plowing psionics and priestly magic back into the mix, then I could easily add templar magic too.  ;-)

And I think you're right regarding the origins of Dark Sun.  I've never heard the theory that it was an independent setting purchased by TSR.  I'd always assumed as you did, that it was an in-house radicalism.

This thread is proving to be quite helpful.  Any other criticisms or suggestions would be welcome.  No one has commented on the general balance of the racial packages.  Does anyone feel that the balance is off, aside from the concern over a MA vs. Wit penalty?

[sirjaguar]

I'm using a system similar to the one Ron described in my TROS campaign (a sci-fi setting sort of Fading Sunish).  My backlash is to  force SA point loss, the idea being that using lots of psionics tends to flatline you into someone with little drive, feeling, etc.