RPGMall.com Indie/POD Sales?

[Gold Rush Games]

Well, initially I (and a bunch of other e-publishers and RPGNow clients) received the original message via e-mail. I responded with my own initial thoughts, but apparently, instead of continuing the discussion via e-mail, I was told this thread was started. So I'll post my comments here.

At 02:25 PM 4/10/03 -0500, RPG Now wrote:
<< On that came up was what if we created a store that was for direct shipping of products from small/indie publishers alone with POD prodocts. Sort of like a Wizard's Attic I guess... Maybe it pays 50%-60% of retail to the publishers instead of the standard channels giving you 40-45% >>

 I am presuming that RPGHost/RPGNow would own this operation and would be running it essentially as an online retailer.

 If that's the case, then asking for a 40-50% discount as some sort of "bargain" over traditional distributors would be very misleading to potential clients. Granted, some of them might be very naive about the industry and jump at the offer. However, some of your potential clients have been doing this a while and know that the discounts you are suggesting are *already* standard for game retailers.

 If you want to do a service for small publishers, the discount would have to be even less, IMO. Something in the 30-40% range would be a more realistic "bargain" for any publisher, small or not.

 And if you will only be processing orders, and not handling any inventory whatsoever, then I think anything above 10% would be little to no bargain at all.

 If any of my presumptions are incorrect, please feel free to explain to me just what, exactly, you are intending this online site to be and what services you plan to offer.

[rpghost]

Tundra,

I couldn't tell from your site... but do you take credit cards? 75% of our orders at our stores are credit card based. Indie's rarely have access to that.

Also, wouldn't it make sense for your products to also be displayed on another more popular site with more small publishers? Make it easier for retailers to hit up one store for their indie game needs?

As for why a new website. First if we were to merge this into RPGShop it would get lost among the 15,000 products there and the tons released daily. Second, we need a seperate identity to avoid having to honor existing affiliate programs. Third, it doesn't fit RPGNow's model.

I think offering a place to get POD _ONLY_ product (as opposed to RPGNow which requires you to have PDF product as well) and one that doesn't require you to get the POD from us (though offers to do so) would make some sense. We could partner with you guys and with Gold Rush on their new POD , etc...

Anyway, just brainstorming here.

James
P.S. Ron, sorry about bashing WA... but people have to hear things or they continue to trust in them.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

James, what Clinton, Ralph, and I are talking about is essentially a very small-press fulfilment service.

Here's one example. A guy has 100 copies each of Universalis, Dust Devils, Trollbabe, Donjon, and whatnot, stored in his vault (games chosen due to physical nature, not implying any of the publishers really wants it done this way). Orders are placed to the publishers' websites, and they notify the guy. He sends the book to the customer.

In my example, anyway, I'm imagining that the guy is not actually paid by the customer at all, in any way. He collects a flat fee from each publisher. Commissions probably wouldn't be appropriate as he does not promote the games.

There are lots of possible permutations or versions of the basic idea; again, the above is only one of them. What I'm not seeing in my example is any need for an extra website, though.

Can you explain any reason to be more sophisticated than this?

Ron,

I know you're talking to James, but I have to answer this. The reason I see the need for more complication is this:

1. Indie publishers often do not know how to get their games published. I've seen some samples of James' POD work, and it's damn nice, and it's cheap. So, if he can offer printing - awesome.

2. Indie game sites are islands on the web. Some submit their links here, but that's a hub that branches out in a hundred ways - not the best way for people to browse. This would be one website hundreds link to, which would contain all the products of each, giving huge cross-promotion.

3. What I'm trying to do with the Bookshelf, James could do better with this. (If I'd thought of it first, and had a $1000 to spare, I'd start this business myself.) By having one website, like I mentioned about, you get cross-promotion. By having all these products in one place, they can move to retailers while subverting the normal channels.

[Paul Czege]

Hey Ron,

What I'm not seeing in my example is any need for an extra website, though.

I thought about this the whole drive home from work. I don't think we should underestimate what could be done with the sales information that RPGmall would have available. A good bean counter could come up with a way to calculate a metric for how consistently a product sells. RPGmall could promote itself to retailers as a portal that informs ordering, and provide them not just with access to rankings of current hot sellers, but of consistent sellers, titles they can stock and re-order with confidence, based on what the bean counter comes up with, as well as of publishers whose product lines are consistent sellers.

Nothing about this idea precludes a publisher from promoting their games from their own website. To the contrary, a publisher who does self-promote, who stays engaged and active with the game playing community, will bump his consistency scores.

Paul

[samdowning]

I thought about buying the RPGmall domain name myself, but for a totally different idea than you have.  We currently run all our stuff through Impressions, so fulfillment is something we've got covered.

Anyway, as far as what to do with it now, I think trying to run it as an indie distributor would be a lot more work than any one person could possibly handle and get paid enough to do it full time.  Contacting retailers is a pain at best, and trying to talk them into picking up anything that's not already well established is even harder.  We tried to do this ourselves and ended up dumping the whole idea.  Way too much work for way too little return.  Also, you'd be competing with the well-established distributors, who have a lot more advertising and cash flow than you do.

The POD and vanity pubishing (as it's sometimes called) market could use its own area, though.  Mixing it in with RPGnow just seemed odd to me, since ya, you do get a copy of the pdf right away (ie, NOW), but the POD stuff isn't NOW at all, it's later.  :)  I think this is the direction you should think of going with this.

Also, it would be superfantastic to have a place that maybe is willing to carry used stuff?  There are a lot of older games I'd love to pick up if I could, but don't want to go through eBay and have to get outbid all the time, or use the Buy Now thing, which always seems more expensive than not.  I know this would be an extra headache in itself, but could be an idea.

[rpghost]

I agree that it may be a lot of work and may not be worth the bother... but that hasn't stopped us from trying to support the industry before.

I agree that POD products are a hard sell at RPGNow for some reason. Though the recent test we ran with a d20 product released as PDF and POD at the same time sold about 20 POD copies ontop of goot PDF sales. So it has potential. A sit that help create POD and spotlight them seems like a good idea.

The other big idea that's been pushed my way is to use the domain for an all RPG Accessory site-- though maybe RPGAccessory.com would be better :)  A site that sells and makes t-shirts and mugs and plushies for RPG logos and games, etc.

The idea of selling used products has also been on my mind. I own RPGSwap.com and it was initially setup that way, but I didn't want to invest in a lot of used product so we choose to let the customers sell their own stuff. I think ebay kind of shot that idea down... so if we were to do a USED/Vintiage product site, we'd have to start buying lots of old product. That's a huge and somewhat risky business. Plus there are some established competitors out there... the thing is, with each competitor in the used business realm - well frankly - their business skills and marketing totally suck. They are all unorginized, take months to respond to an order request, etc... I can't believe the owners are all that bad - so there must be a LOT of work tracking inventory and customer request there are just over burdening them.

I've not decided what to do yet. Maybe letting a group/association like the DPG or some Indie group run the domain would be the answer. Some team of people who have vested interest in trying to convince FLGS of the value of their product lines. If we took on Indie produt sales for this domain, we would NOT have the time to pimp the products to the retail chain anyway- so maybe there needs to be some sort of grass roots sales force behind the concept for it to really take off. But, what RPGHost can do is bring 250,000 readers to the site.

Would it make sense to have RPGMall.com be a melting pot for all these ideas? The domain name is generic enough...

James

[Ron Edwards]

H'm!

Everyone's provided good answers to my question. Here are some more.

1. What's the cost to the publisher?

Ron's preference: If we're only talking about warehousing and fulfilment, then I think a flat fee is appropriate. Something else would be applied, of course, if we're talking about kind of POD or Golden Pillar type situation.

2. Who gets paid by the customer?

Ron's preference: If we're talking about a single website, then I presume the Paypal/etc buttons are owned and utilized only by each respective publisher (in other words, James does no invoicing).

Best,
Ron

[rpghost]

1. What's the cost to the publisher?

Not sure if a flat fee word work since all the payment systems work on a percentage only. If we have to caugh up 5% (which is what it averages out to overall with all costs figured in) for paypal or credit cards then we have to pass that along to the publisher. Our best guess is that this service would cost you 30% of retail.

2. Who gets paid by the customer?

I don't think we'd be just the front end for vendors to supply their own payment buttons. We'd take all the payments and handle all the customer support and mostly do all the shipping. If we put things in the hands of the publishers, then we risk them not being responsive or arguing with customers over small amounts or whatever. I wouldn't trust the publishers with our customer service.

The point of this kind of site would be to allow a customer/retailer to add items from MANY publishers to their cart and pay once and have one point of contact for customer service. Your suggest seem to imply something else - less I read it wrong.

James

[Ron Edwards]

Hi James,

Well, what you're suggesting isn't the same as my own, personal vision of what I'd like to see next - but I'm also the first person to say that my own, personal vision and $1.25 will buy this cup of coffee I'm drinking.

So never mind what I'd "prefer" - I was just putting it out there to make sure I understood what's being discussed.

I do like what I'm seeing. Tell us more. So far, let's say I eventually decide to put Mongrel into full production as an RPG (it's currently just a design-exercise example in one of my essays), and I decide to go with your service.

Um, let's put the MSRP at $30 (just as an example). Let's say we handle it as a POD. How does the arrangement work - positing that, say, 15-20 other small-press publishers are doing the same thing?

Best,
Ron

P.S. Oh yeah, quick note to Samantha. First, hi there! Good to see you and Todd at the Forge. Second, a lot of us, or well, me, think that "vanity press" is misleading, because our products tend to turn a profit. "Small press" makes more sense. This isn't a correction or anything, just food for thought.

[Tundra]

Tundra,

I couldn't tell from your site... but do you take credit cards? 75% of our orders at our stores are credit card based. Indie's rarely have access to that.

Certainly.  But our focus is not on the individual consumers; we aim at dists and now retailers.  If you went to the Trading Post, that's the ordering area of the Tundra site.  Now, the TSO site is is pretty poor steads right now since few dists and retailers use it so we focused our online time on the Trading Post.  Changes in the works.

Also, wouldn't it make sense for your products to also be displayed on another more popular site with more small publishers?

My clients products?  Sure, they have full control of their promotional efforts, etc etc.  Are you trying to say that RPGMall should take over for Tundra? ;-)

Make it easier for retailers to hit up one store for their indie game needs?

Logically, yes. But here's the practicality:

Retailers won't buy indie rpgs because it's easier to shop in one place.  It will have no effect whatsoever.  The problem is not the availability but the preceived value to the retailer. Most feel that indie rpgs will not sell in their store until a certain level of sales and reputation already.  So don't worry about retailers: focusing it on the game consumer is a far better, and more profitable, plan.

ttfn - woody

[rpghost]

Retailers won't buy indie rpgs because it's easier to shop in one place.  It will have no effect whatsoever.  The problem is not the availability but the preceived value to the retailer. Most feel that indie rpgs will not sell in their store until a certain level of sales and reputation already.  So don't worry about retailers: focusing it on the game consumer is a far better, and more profitable, plan.

Being that I am on both sides of the fence (owned a store for 7 years and run RPGShop.com) I tend to agree with you on the above. But people here seem to feel otherwise. Maybe just cause they are mainly publishers... I donno... Indie games are a big risk for game stores who are already over extended with all the d20 glut. But if the publishers work as a group to bring both customers and retailers to a supported mall location, I think it can still serve a purpose.

James

[rpghost]

Um, let's put the MSRP at $30 (just as an example). Let's say we handle it as a POD. How does the arrangement work - positing that, say, 15-20 other small-press publishers are doing the same thing?

What I'd have to do for the new site is come up with a different pricing structure for the POD service that allows a profit to be made on the POD alone - then anyone could order as many POD copies as they want and leave whatever amount they want at our warehouse. It wouldn't have to be that much more, but at least enough to cover our hassles and make some $ to pay for the staff.

It's my guess that much of the indie product will move slowly. Some of it may even just gather dust. Warehousing this isn't always cheap, but with small volumes of POD that's not a huge issue. We just added on to our warehouse space we rent and have some room for future growth.

I don't have a set plan right now to be able to detail how it would all work. But in a nut shell, you'd provide us with a PDF and $ to do your first print run (10+ copies) or you'd ship your product from some other POD to us. Then we'd place you on the store front simular to RPGNow/RPGShop (probably even allow you to manage your own product listings and coupons like RPGNow does). Then as a group, you and I and other publishers help promote the site. Maybe some convention appearences, etc... RPGHost will offer discount advertising. Etc. When a sale is made we'd keep a percentage (guessing 30% of whatever it's sold for) and send you monthly or quarterly checks (depends on volume). We pay our bill on time - just ask anyone - but we don't want to be putting up our own money to pay for your unproven products, thus we pay only after the sale.

Of course there isn't going to be much volume (unless we're all lucky and good marketers), so we have to keep our daily workload to a minimum. Thus probably leaving publishers have more control over their listings and stats. For example the Gold Vendors at RPGNow can offer customers special discount coupons, they can change their own product listing text, add new products, etc. Not sure if we'd want to get into the delivery of comp copies though...

James

[Paul Czege]

Third time's the charm, right?

Indie games are a big risk for game stores who are already over extended with all the d20 glut. But if the publishers work as a group to bring both customers and retailers to a supported mall location, I think it can still serve a purpose.

James, I think you're totally misidentifying the problem. Retailers are frustrated because they have stock that won't sell. And "hot product" stats, in my opinion, are garbage from a retailer perspective because they can trick you into ordering product on the decline side of a sales spike. That's how you end up with shit that won't sell. "Hot product" stats don't help you determine which products have "legs" and which have a spike and decline sales curve.

Imagine a retailer portal absent of "hot product" information. Imagine instead that each product is rated by how steadily it has sold, based on a combination of direct-to-customer sales and retailer orders. When a retailer comes to the portal, they can identify and order products that have sold steadily. And they can log in to their account and be reminded of products they've ordered in the past that are still selling steadily.

And the low price point of indie games is to your advantage. Ordering two or three $8-$15 indie games that can be expected to sell slow and steady makes way more sense than gambling on one $35 book that might sell in the next month, but might never sell at all. Retailers disillusioned by spike and decline sales would beat a path to your door.

Paul

[Tundra]

Retailers won't buy indie rpgs because it's easier to shop in one place.  It will have no effect whatsoever.  The problem is not the availability but the preceived value to the retailer. Most feel that indie rpgs will not sell in their store until a certain level of sales and reputation already.  So don't worry about retailers: focusing it on the game consumer is a far better, and more profitable, plan.

Being that I am on both sides of the fence (owned a store for 7 years and run RPGShop.com) I tend to agree with you on the above. But people here seem to feel otherwise.

They seem to, but that doesn't mean there isn't major rose colored glasses going on.  I don't want to be negative; the idea is good, I just suggest that the original focus not be aimed at putting indies into stores but putting indies into the hands of *gamers*.

FYI, folks, so you know I'm not just a curmudgeon, I've been handling sales and marketing in this industry for 20 years now, with such companies as Lion Rampant, Atlas Games, and Steve Jackson Games.  I'm *not* a designer, I'm *not* an artist. I only do sales and marketing. I've had to find ways to get products on the store shelves for an awful long time, and it's always the same response : We'll put it in when we have a demand for it.  Now, since most retailers don't actively ask their customers what they should carry, that means a heavy gamer focus is necessary for an indie company to get shelf space.  That or have have a major promo budget, which would almost preclude indie companies.

Get the gamers.  Get them rabid.  Everything else is secondary.

ttfn - woody

[Valamir]

Secondary yes, but not absent.

Currently we have:

GamerGuy:  Hey FLGS Guy, I just heard about this great game called Universalis, can you get it for me.

FLGSGuy:  Never heard of it.

GamerGuy:  Its by someone called Ramshead

FLGSGuy:  Let me check <flips through book> Nope, must be out of print.


We also have situations where individually, Indie Publishers DO manage to get their product on the shelves in select stores.  Jared's done this with a couple stores for OctaNe I believe.  Usually, this involves individual negotiation and individual ordering directly between the store and the publisher.  While there are a handful of stores out there that are willing to do this because they groove on the indie-vibe, by and large...it ain't going to happen.  Huge investment of time for little volume.


So IMO, whats needed is a central repository of Indie Games.  Someplace that has gotten in front of the retailers to say "If you're looking for small press independent RPGs, we've got 'em, and can get 'em to you with no hassle".  

That way when GamerGuy ventures into the FLGS and says "Can you get me a copy of Universalis" FLGSGuy knows where to go to find it, and knows that alls he has to do is put in an online order without any of the hassle of negotiating bupkiss.

Further, its no big surprise that retailers aren't going to want to carry alot of unproven inventory.  But a place like RPGMall could BE their inventory.  Retailers could have an Indie Shelf where they keep 1 copy of a half dozen different games, and periodically reorder from a whole stable of games direct from 1 place.  An Indie Game rack could have fliers of games that sound interesting but that the retailer isn't willing to put on the shelf just yet, but he know where to go to get them if someone shows an interest.


Thing is there's no need to swing for the fences and hit a home run with this at the first at bat.  If 5000 game stores don't start placing orders right away, that doesn't make the thing a failure.  Small Press publishers are SMALL, even an extra 10 sales is a noticeable spike.  So to make it work, a central repository of indie games acting to fulfill orders has to be run very much on a budget, because it isn't going to have huge volumes.  But 10 sales from a dozen different companies starts to add up.  But efficiency is going to be the watchward of the day.