Do prewritten scenarios=Illusionism/Participationism?

[Bob McNamee]

and you have to love a game where you can lose a character or three on the way to the briefing room to get the instructions to start the adventure!

:)--from my own Gencon experience

[Marco]

The players each make a character with a complex personality and backstory, who normally has some significant goal that the player wants to pursue; if this goal does not coincide with what the GM or the other players want to do, they tend to be inflexible about going against "what their character would do", because that's how it's supposed to be done.

Marco's handy steps for getting the group in order:

1. Set up a world that interests you. Have some moderately long-term NPC driven stuff going down in the background (again, that interests you). Make sure that some of it (lots?) is important to people of the PC's style backgrounds.

2. Present this world (with some noted hooks in the text) to the players. Writeups are good. Maps are good. Gimicks are good. Try to center the players on certain themes (children of nobility? Low class adventurers? wahtever--just so that they have a guideline to start with that puts most of 'em in the same space). If someone wants to be really weird, cool--but discuss their responsibilities to play (i.e. if you make a monk who never leaves his house or talks to anyone or has any friends, you have to tell me how he gets involved with things).

a. Tell each player to have some *relation* (not necessiarly a blood relation--it could be friendship, shared goals, etc.) with the person to the right and left of them. This helps cohesion. If someone's really stuck, okay, don't *enforce* it--but promote it.

b. Encourage them to use the plot hooks but be clear that it's not required.

3. Have everyone submit their characters with their back-stories and their relationships. Check em out. Feel free to ask questions, make suggestions, or get claraficaiton (and if the player says "that part's up to you," so much the easier).

4. Build the campaign around that. Design an arc that acknowledges and forwards their goals. If you have group quest-style stuff, fine--but it might only be really relevant to a couple of the players--the other (say two) might be helping their buds out that time ... or not.

5. If the party is dedicately split, time-slicing can work if there's interesting stuff to do when they're not playing (if they like watching, all the better--but be prepared for some drop off).

That's the Impossible Thing in action! :)
-Marco

[ If they're really intent on playing wildly apart from each other, don't engage with any plot hooks, and otherwise show no interest in sitting at the same table then pick new dudes. ]

[DaGreatJL]

Thank you for all your advice, and I will certainly do my best to use it. However, there is something in particular that would very much assist me: advice on how to reach out to gamers locally, outside of a gaming environment. I mean, getting a game together and education a group of five or so, and releasing them back into the wild to be fruitful will certainly work, but I'm looking for more. I want to reach out to the gaming community as a whole, or at the very least the ones who I can get to pay attention.

And Mr. Spencer, I appreciate the (probably correct) advice you've given me, and respect your opinion, but I cannot in good conscience entertain your opinion. If I believe that, then I have accepted failure, and the idea that the community is going to suck, and that's it. Too many people here (here being my geographic locale, as opposed to The Forge) have accepted this; I refuse, based on stubborness, conceit, and a belief that I deserve better, to accept current conditions.

[clehrich]

DaGreatJL,

I like your attitude, personally.  Stick to your guns, and push hard.  If things are as you say, what have you got to lose?

The first thing, I think, is whether these players realize that their games are not satisfying them.  They know this unconsciously, at least, because they're leaving, but do they know it consciously?  If not, you need to start some murmuring, perhaps.  I'm hoping people are actually crabbing about the games, because then it's much easier for you.

Second, assuming #1, is there an Absolute GM?  How do people feel about him, if so?  If there is, and they like him, you may be hosed.  If not, then you can propose to run a one-shot or something.  Set it up with the usual GM as a "day off," and chances are he'll jump at the opportunity.  GMing a tough crowd is no picnic.

Now, third, you're running a game.  Let everybody know it's going to be a bit experimental, because you're "trying some things," and would welcome their criticisms.  This way, you don't seem to be causing trouble, so much as working out some odd personal RPG problems of your own.  No threat, no foul.

Now, fourth, and this is the hard bit, ROCK.  Consider pre-testing your style and game scenario over on indie-netgaming, or something like that.  Practice practice practice.  Get so you're so cool and confident that you can make this game go no matter what.  Make it great.  I'll get back to what game to choose in a second.

Afterwards, all innocent-like, ask how people liked your game.  Ask if they'd like you to do that stuff again sometime, but indicate that it's a lot of work and it'll be a little while before you're ready.  Tempt them.

With any luck, they'll start jonesing for it, and start importing bits and style from that game into the current one.  Regardless, they're going to want to do things you like, because they like your gaming.  Over time, you will become more and more the center of a kind of pseudo-fan club, with people asking when you're running next and if they can have a space.

Now keep working at it, keep being good at it, and cross your fingers.  What you want is somebody else to think, "Hey, I could do that," and run a game of the sort this gang likes.  Once that ball is rolling, you just sit back and enjoy.  Word will start around the extended group: there's fun gaming happening, come on back.  And so on.

I'm against all this doom and gloom.  The equation is simple: put yourself in a position where you are the dope-peddler for good RPG crack, and deliver the product.  Pretty soon others will want to compete for business, and you have a whole little revolution happening all by itself.

Now, about what game to run.

If they're very conservative, don't perhaps leap to InSpectres.  

Could you do something crunchy, but run it No Myth?

How about Paranoia, but really raving weirdo Paranoia?  Here's an idea I'm stealing from John Kim, with apologies: give them a monofilament whip.  It's a handle with two buttons, neither labeled.  When they push either one, it goes "whirr."  When they wave it around, roll on the Random Limb Loss Table.  See how often they push the buttons and try to figure out how to get it to work.  It's amazing...

I'd push for doing something very close to what they're used to, but do it No Myth, keeping it fast and punchy.  Traditionall gamers in a rut probably want lots of action, so give it to them, but tell them not to sweat the details.  Show them that they can have a rocking time without all the crunchy bits exactly in place.

Everything is going to depend on you having a great first game.  Drink a LOT of coffee, and be VERY inspired.

I'm crossing my fingers, buddy.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

And Mr. Spencer, I appreciate the (probably correct) advice you've given me, and respect your opinion, but I cannot in good conscience entertain your opinion. If I believe that, then I have accepted failure, and the idea that the community is going to suck, and that's it. Too many people here (here being my geographic locale, as opposed to The Forge) have accepted this; I refuse, based on stubborness, conceit, and a belief that I deserve better, to accept current conditions.

I admire your spunk. I do still have my doubt about reaching large portions of the gaming community. May I suggest you attempt to reach people currently outside of the gaming population? You may have better luck starting with someon fresh that to try to convert existing gamers who are entrenched in their ways.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey JL,

The thread Social Context may be of interest to you. Check through the Actual Play forum in general as well, looking for thread titles that pertain to starting new games.

Also, everyone, I think the original thread topic is now well and truly behind in the dust. Time to start a new thread, OK?

Best,
Ron

[DaGreatJL]

Thanks y'all for the advice; I don't think I'll start another thread, as I think I have some starting material here. I'll talk about what happens as it happens. Thanks again for the help.