Icelandic Saga based campaign

[Jeffrey Miller]

It may or may not be relevant, but Atlas recently released an Ars Magica suppliment for Iceland.  There may be some content for you there to delve into.

[greyorm]

(our knowledge of what historical Icelanders did and believed in terms of magic and religion could barely be dignified with the term "sketchy"

While the records are certainly nowhere near complete, the available knowledge is more than sketchy; the no-where near extensive shelf of materials I own on the subject supports this.

Note that the Icelandic sagas aren't "myths and legends." They're novels, possibly the first novels.

In what way are they not myths and legends?
And perhaps it would be best to define which sagas, specifically, we are referring to, or are being used as reference for the game?

There's a huge amount of material to be considered in just referring to "the sagas."

[jrs]

Chris,

Have you looked at Hero Wars?  Its use of attributes and affinities carries the flavor of "everyday magic" that you describe.    See the http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=6199">Using Affinities and Feats  topic in the Hero Wars forum for a recent discussion of affinities as a way to augment other abilities.  This seems to me a perfect fit for saga based magic.  Of course, I might be predisposed to think this; during our late, great Hero Wars campaign, I often thought of my character's deity, Yinkin, as being a variation of Loki.  

Julie

[John Kim]

While the records are certainly nowhere near complete, the available knowledge is more than sketchy; the no-where near extensive shelf of materials I own on the subject supports this.
...
In what way are they not myths and legends?
And perhaps it would be best to define which sagas, specifically, we are referring to, or are being used as reference for the game?

I'd certainly agree that there is a host of material.  Because of the combination of historical records, literary works, and archeology, we probably know more about Iceland than nearly any other European country during that period.

As for them being "myth and legend"...  That seems appropriate to me for works like the Eddas, but not for the historical sagas like the Laxdaela Saga.  A novel as traditionally defined is founded in social realism, which is what the Laxdaela Saga is -- it is a human story about real people.  There is no epic struggle resolved; no gods or wars.  It is about the four marriages of a woman, and the choices which she made.  

This is an important distinction.  The difference between myth (like the Eddas), a romance (like Arrow-Odd), and a novel (like the Laxdaela Saga) is not just power level.  It is what the story is about.  The historical sagas are immersed in social reality.  They explore questions like marrying for love vs marrying for money, fulfilling vengeance versus keeping peace between families, sibling rivalry, and so forth.  Romances explore more philosophical struggles: Faustian bargains, Fate versus free will, and so forth.

In game terms, a game emulating the historical sagas needs to consider the relation to society.  Mechanics considering for wealth, status, lawspeaking, and so forth should be considered.

[Chris]

which sagas, specifically, we are referring to, or are being used as reference for the game?

John keeps stealing my points before I can make them - yes, the term "saga" is almost too broad to even lump them together here, but they do break down into some recognizable sets (and yes, the borders get blurry, becuase the categories were made up centuries later by scholars)

This is an important distinction. The difference between myth (like the Eddas), a romance (like Arrow-Odd), and a novel (like the Laxdaela Saga) is not just power level. It is what the story is about.There is no epic struggle resolved; no gods or wars. It is about the four marriages of a woman, and the choices which she made.

I spent my seniot year in college translating a saga and writing about this, then a year in Iceland on a fulbright talking to people about this, but John's got it in a nut shell.  You've got Eddas, Fornaldasagas (Legendary Sagas) and Islindingur Sagas (Icelandic Sagas, the "Novels").  I'm really interested in talking about all of them, but the campaign I'm planning right now is an Islindingur saga.  Njals Saga, for example (one of the greatest works of literature ever - anyone out there MUST go out and read it now) is nothing more than a feud between two farmers that gets out of hand.  There is an "epic struggle," but not between kings and countries and monsters, but between two men, their famlies, and the tragic consequences that lead them all to their doom.  Its the magical trimmings on the side that I'm working at fitting in - the dreams, the spirits . . . but I'm thinking narrativist.  I guess I'm realizing I more need to think about how to adapt the world rather than worry about a system yet.  

I'm rambling.  Its late, and I've thought so much about the sagas in the past that I think its almost impossible to discuss them intelligently - I've read every english translation available and a few in Old Norse, and they start to bleed and run together.  I should go flip through all my Islindingur Sagas in the next few days, and cull out some key things I'd like to think about.  

And now I need to look at Hero's Quest too . . . you know, before I started hanging out here, I thougth I was REALLY well played - I awed my friends with the 25+ systems I had read and played, and now I feel like a rank amature.  Humility is a virtue.

[John Kim]

I spent my senior year in college translating a saga and writing about this, then a year in Iceland on a fulbright talking to people about this, but John's got it in a nut shell.  You've got Eddas, Fornaldasagas (Legendary Sagas) and Islindingur Sagas (Icelandic Sagas, the "Novels").  I'm really interested in talking about all of them, but the campaign I'm planning right now is an Islindingur saga.  

Wow!  Cool!  Now I'd really be interested in your feedback and input on my Vinland stuff.  It's not pure Islindingur what with all the Skraelings and other stuff, but it is closely based on it.  

And now I need to look at Hero's Quest too . . . you know, before I started hanging out here, I thougth I was REALLY well played - I awed my friends with the 25+ systems I had read and played, and now I feel like a rank amature.  Humility is a virtue.  

The current version of this game is "Hero Wars" (from Issaries, Inc), but a new version called "Hero Quest" will be coming out soon.  I have a copy now, though I haven't played it.  I went with the older game RuneQuest and don't regret it, but there may be stuff adaptable from HW.  I recommend the 3rd edition of RQ and especially the Vikings campaign set.  The 3rd edition separated the rules from the setting of Glorantha (good for your/our purposes).  Unfortunately, both are long out of print.  

If you're truly determined, you can buy Steve Perrin's Quest Rules online as PDF files.  This is a system which was made by one of the designer's as the successor system to RQ.  You can find it at   http://www.perrinworlds.com/SPQR.html

Unfortunately, it seems rather expensively priced at $25, especially given that a number of sections aren't written yet (including creatures, skill descriptions, and others).  You can at least download the character creation chapter for free as a sample.  I was unimpressed with what I saw.

[James Holloway]

Well, John and Chris have pretty much made my point for me about the sagas -- when I think "the sagas," I'm thinking of the Islendingasogur. So, Njal's Saga, Laxdaela Saga, Eyrbyggja Saga, Egil's Saga, Bandamanna Saga (which might be a "romance"), and so on. These really don't have a mythical or legendary characteristic.

As for this thing about "ships, houses, shields and swords" having runes on them, this being "confirmed by archaeology..."  That's really not true. Of the seven or eight Viking-era Scandinavian ships that have been excavated, none have runic inscriptions that I'm aware of. The only period shields surviving are the ones from the Oseberg burial -- they're plain wood. I can't think of a Viking sword with a runic inscription. Some of them have Latin inscriptions identifying the smith (since many of them were made in Francia -- the classic example are the "Ulfbehrt" swords), but runes? If they exist I can't think of them off the top of my head (primarily for preservation reasons -- they're sword-shaped bars of rust these days). Now, there are some *English* weapons with runic script on them -- the Battersea seax is a good example -- so I suppose there's no reason to rule out the possibility of inscriptions on swords. As for houses, there are obviously no standing Viking age houses. I don't know where that idea could be coming from.

The majority of Viking age runic inscriptions that we know about are runestones, graffiti like the ones in Hagia Sophia or on the Arsenal lion in Venice, item inscriptions on things like brooches, drinking horns, combs and caskets (which are sometimes, very rarely, magical in nature, but which often say things like "this casket belongs to so-and-so" or "so-and-so made this comb"), and notes on little strips of wood.

I stand by my assessment that once you exclude high medieval written sources (like the sagas and Eddas) our knowledge of Scandinavian religious practice (as opposed to mythology) is next to nil. Almost anything you read in any book on the subject is going to come from the written sources.

Now, of course, Chris is basing his game on these written sources, so if you want to go carving runes on everything, knock yourself out.

I'm sorry; this discussion isn't really appropriate for the forum, and I should cut it out. It's just one of my buttons: I'm a grad student in early medieval archaeology, and religious practices in Viking Britain (which necessitates looking at Viking age Scandinavia a bit, as you might imagine) are a big interest of mine, so when the subject comes up I have a hard time restraining myself. I guess I'm just always happy to have people I haven't already bored to tears on the subject.

[Chris]

this discussion isn't really appropriate for the forum, and I should cut it out. It's just one of my buttons: I'm a grad student in early medieval archaeology, and religious practices in Viking Britain (which necessitates looking at Viking age Scandinavia a bit, as you might imagine) are a big interest of mine, so when the subject comes up I have a hard time restraining myself.

Hey I don't mind - you did notice my tossing about my academic qualifications in a causual, migh-minded way.  Seriously, unless Ron or the other High Ones of the Forge mind, I'm MORE interested in accademic comments than not - if I want magic too badly in my game, I'll just stick it it, but a reality check is fantastic.  "Real" medieval scandinavia had the least magic, "literary" scandinavia had more trappings, "legendary" scandinavia was imbued with it, and "eddic" scandinavia was pure magic.  What do I want?  It will end up being a ballance between "pure" historical role-playing (I don't want to make the game based on 16th century Icelandic life, which would be called "Farmer: The Starving") and the hints and suggestions of magic given in the Islindingur Sagas.  As I've said, I'm interested in as many ideas as possible being thrown out, as they're all being siften through this little brain of mine.

But yes, Islindingur Sagas is my focus, so some, if not much magic - and as for swords, one of the great things about archeological decay is that it allows us to fill in the blanks . . . runes on the blade?  Why the hell not.

[Chris]

Here we go - my initial thoughts regarding runic magic.  

http://theweekinreview.blogspot.com/v_rpgrunes.doc

Any thoughts would be welcome, especially if there is anything similar I should check out - I don't want to recreate the wheel, and there are SO many games out there.  But I already have an apologetic note at the begining of it, so I'm not going to do to many mea culpas here.

[Ron Edwards]

Moderator comment: I totally support academic referencing and information-exchange in these discussions. I think we can all tell the difference between helpful information and ego-based dick-swinging, so that's the distinction to watch out for. But actual use of specialized knowledge to help a person's game in any way? Fabulous.

Links are always helpful rather than long perorations, if possible.

Best,
Ron

[John Kim]

Well, John and Chris have pretty much made my point for me about the sagas -- when I think "the sagas," I'm thinking of the Islendingasogur. So, Njal's Saga, Laxdaela Saga, Eyrbyggja Saga, Egil's Saga, Bandamanna Saga (which might be a "romance"), and so on. These really don't have a mythical or legendary characteristic.

As for this thing about "ships, houses, shields and swords" having runes on them, this being "confirmed by archaeology..."  That's really not true.

Oops.  Sorry about that.  I haven't really studied the archeology.  Like Chris' planned game, mine is based on the sagas, not on historical fact per se (although I will frequently insert facts if they don't interfere).  My point was about a general view of the role of magic.  Having magical blessings being common on ships, shields, etc. is not particularly contradictory with the desired flavor.  

Incidentally, runic magic hasn't appeared in my game except minorly in a form of fortune telling (I had it as carving runes in wood, then heating the wood and interpreting the cracks -- that's just invented).  I'm a little unsure about how I should approach it.  From my reading, runes appear important in the mythic Eddas, but they are hardly mentioned at all in the historical sagas.  While there has been a fair amount of magic in my game, it has mostly been through the influence of a prophetess (shaman, really).  There's been a lot of speaking with the dead, messages from the disir, and so forth.

[Chris]

From my reading, runes appear important in the mythic Eddas, but they are hardly mentioned at all in the historical sagas. While there has been a fair amount of magic in my game, it has mostly been through the influence of a prophetess (shaman, really). There's been a lot of speaking with the dead, messages from the disir, and so forth.

What you're doing sounds very saga.  While there aren't many runes in the sagas, I agree with the idea that I want to balance "Real" with "atmosphere."  I think Egil's nid/nith (curse the lack of 'eth' and 'thorn' on the keyboard) runes cursing Erik Blood-Axe are the only that spring to mind.  But this weekend I'm craking out my penguin classics and doing some research.

[James Holloway]

From my reading, runes appear important in the mythic Eddas, but they are hardly mentioned at all in the historical sagas. While there has been a fair amount of magic in my game, it has mostly been through the influence of a prophetess (shaman, really). There's been a lot of speaking with the dead, messages from the disir, and so forth.

What you're doing sounds very saga.  While there aren't many runes in the sagas, I agree with the idea that I want to balance "Real" with "atmosphere."  I think Egil's nid/nith (curse the lack of 'eth' and 'thorn' on the keyboard) runes cursing Erik Blood-Axe are the only that spring to mind.  But this weekend I'm craking out my penguin classics and doing some research.

You could link runes with a relevant skill. Egil's knowledge of runes is clearly linked to his knowledge of poetry. Someone else's runes might be linked to being a smith (for swords and things) or to medical / veterinary skill. This would work up the lack of a difference between magical and technical/scientific knowledge.

[RiP]

RiP, if you have any more info on this (is there anywhere I can find this in english, summerized on-line somewhere, etc.), that would be great.  

Hi to all,
Hi Chris,
I searched without sucess my old design note about the runic staves system.
Here a breaf summary of this system, as well I remenber it...

The base of this freeform runic system is the old futhark and the symbolism of each runo that compose it.
For details about the runic symbolism and a good overview of runic powers I sugest you can take a look on Runecaster's Handbook (formerly The Well of the Wyrd). You can complete this reading by this other books from the same author: Northern Magic: Rune Mysteries and Shamanism and The Truth About Teutonic Magick.
All this books are real good.

Here is teh base of the runic magic system I used in the past:
A runic shaman who want to cast a spell must use three runic staves according with the symbolism of the three Norns (Urd, Verdandi, Skuld)
First Runo symbolise the Source of the spell.
Second Runo symbolise the Path of the spell.
Third Runo symbolise the Goal of teh spell.
Example #1:
First Runo: Body/Second Runo: Vision/Third Runo: Fight
With this spell, the caster (or the target of teh spell) can see his body during a fight.
Example #2: with the same runes, but a different order...
First Runo: Fight/Second Runo: Vision/Third Runo: Body
Here, the rune caster (or the spell target) see the body of his adversary during a fight.

Why Freeform style?
Well, each runo have several symbol. It's up to the caster to interpret. It means that two Runcaster with the same runes and the sam arangment could have two or a multitude of interpretations for the effect. So the Runecaster describes the effect of his spell, spend some 'Mana Point' and it's up to the GM to determine the final result.

Hope it helps.
Best regards,
Pierre.

[Balbinus]

Wayfarer's Song is a free rpg with essentially a Norse/Old English feel to it, magic worked into the everyday and IMO a neat system attached.

http://www.geocities.com/mythopoetic_games/downloads.html

It's basically designed for this kind of game and is what I'd use.