The MOST BROKEN VAGARY???

[tunaman9000]

I have been running a "high-magic" campaign in Riddle for about the last 3-4 months (can't tell exactly, time flies when you are having fun!). It's actually pretty fun, when you give your fighters high-grade magical items and stuff, like my archer has a bow with a movement spell on it, effecting the range modifier for the weapon to be +1/100yd, but otherwise just like a regular longbow... Anyway, I have 2 mages in my party, one is a fledgling human mage (who has a problem with the whole idea of spellcasting...he really is not very good at it, and tends to blow his entire pool casting the most stupid spells...we're working with him...), but the other is a Lecherous Leprechaun (who ROCKS! He adds so much flavor to this group). The Leprechaun has tended to become a bit Uberfreakish lately, due to a single vagary, for the most part: Growth. He has a level 3, which was (and always will be) the last battlefield vagary promotion to a level 3 ever to happen in my game. From here on out, it's only with at least 6 months study that a vagary can be raised from 2 to 3...it's just so cracked!

Anyway, I need advise. Here is how we have treated growth, assuming that we have read the rules correctly. If everything is as we have believed it is, then a character with a Growth of 2 can gain to 10 times his original size (I consider this mass, not height/width...don't want 60' characters running around until at least level 3!!!) Now, according to the rules, if you increase your size, each 1/3 you increase by gains you +1 ST and +1 TO, if my memory serves (my book is in the car, and I am too lazy right now to get it). That means that a character 10 times his original size gains +30 ST and +30 TO!!!!!! I of course, have limited this to, I think +6 ST and +6 TO, to preserve a LITTLE game balance, but even so, my mage has become a better fighter than my principal fighter using this and a simple, maintainable movement 1 spell to increase his speed. Unfortunately, he now has Growth 3, which, according to the rules, should let him grow to a +300 ST and +300 TO. I limited this to +20/+20, since the only way he could grow larger is if he never wanted to return to his original size...

The only way I have been able to limit him at all is putting him against mages with retinues who counter everything he's got! That makes him frustrated, but me happy about the game balance, since he isn't instantly taking out any threat that comes along before anybody else has the chance to do anything. Anybody have any suggestions as to how I can reign him in without hurting his feelings? Or should I just take them to the "next" level, and go on to my next leg of the campaign...undead. Kill the characters, and have them raised up by the necromancer who killed them! TEE HEE HEEEEEEE!!!!

BTW, I LOVE THIS SYSTEM! I am fairly new to the "GM" role, and to roleplaying in general, but this system seems to be less about the mechanics and more about the roleplaying, which I love... Great job! Can't wait for "Flower of Battle" and "Sorcery and the Fey"!!!

[Lance D. Allen]

Well, proof positive that TRoS can be run "high magic"...

First off to correct you; As per the rules for Plague of the Dwarf/Giant on page 130 of the book, you gain 1 point of ST and TO for ever 50% (1/2, that is), not 30% (approx. 1/3). (Ooh, also a point of errata here, if it's not already been caught. It states the effect is maturing, when it should be expanding/contracting)

Secondly, a little bit of math error.. If I am 10x my current size, I have only grown by 9 increments of 1x my size. So it would be a +18 ST and TO, rather than 20. Nasty? You bet your ass it is. But think of what it would be like to be 60' tall? (Or, in your estimation, suddenly around 1 ton, rather than 200 lbs) Especially instantly... The reason this spell is called plague is because it is. You're suddenly 10x your size, you're likely to not adapt quickly, then you fall.. Can we say, OUCH? Or even possibly "nice one. So what's your next character going to be?"

Chances are, this approach won't work in your game, because you've already been allowing the player to run amok with the spell.

Final, most important point; It's not about game balance. Don't throw bigger and badder enemies against them simply to balance them out. As you pointed out, it just frustrates the player, and that's NOT what it's about. It's about having fun, remember? Look at their spiritual attributes. Find out what they want to do by finding out what's important to them. When they're doing what they want to do, then they'll be having fun, and my guess is, so will you.

[tunaman9000]

I got confused...it's when you SHRINK that it goes by thirds... I had not thought about the awkwardness of the sudden transformation before...interesting point. However, say the subject were to successfully cast this, say, lying prone in an open field or something equally harmless, what can you do to fight it? The reason I have to throw big baddies at them is because I want my foes to at LEAST offer a challenge! I have noticed that in many situations, mages simply have nothing to fear! Of course, given the very nature of magic, that should be no surprise...

Thanks for the help! I'll keep you posted...BTW, what does everybody think about the whole "undead" thing?

[Jake Norwood]

They key is to present your players with problems that won't be solved through anything that magic can do--complicated issues of loyalty, love, and drive.

Jake

[Caldis]

I'm considering buying ROS so I havent actually played it yet but this situation brings up one question.  By my understanding of the quick start rules casting spells causes aging in the wizard unless he uses a significant part of his sorcery pool to reduce it.  Has this proven any hindrance to players throwing spells around left and right in your game or have they either not been scared off by aging or not had to deal with it because they've been able to avoid it?

[Bankuei]

Let's talk about this iffy term, "game balance" shall we?

I of course, have limited this to, I think +6 ST and +6 TO, to preserve a LITTLE game balance,

SNIP

That makes him frustrated, but me happy about the game balance, since he isn't instantly taking out any threat that comes along before anybody else has the chance to do anything. Anybody have any suggestions as to how I can reign him in without hurting his feelings?

What is game balance to you?  Is it "all player characters have about the same level of power?"  If that's the case, in the book it tells you mages are inherently "inbalanced" in that sense.

But really, most of the time when I hear this term in regards to ROS magic, game balance is "GM's Plot Control" masquerading as something else.  Ok, so your leprechan can grow big and step on people.  That's grand for him.  

On the simplest level- Can he do this in a small castle hallway?  Can he do it on top of a roof or a weak floor?  How about a boat?

Second, like Jake says, real conflict can't be solved by steel or magic alone.  Real conflict isn't just one person's problem, but a big-ass nasty problem that isn't easily solved.  You don't reign him in, you let him play magic, let him see what he can do, against... Oppression.  Poverty.  Plague.  How about when 2 religions clash and the poor people in the middle get recruited by both sides and pillaged by both sides?

How much magic can you use?  How can you "fix" these problems?

Chris

[Brian Leybourne]

And don't forget that if he's ten times bigger, then he's ONE HUNDRED times heavier. Even ignoring the fact that his body would implode like a old style TV tube (we'll forget that since it's magic) that still has to cause some issues depending on where he's standing, right?

Or in other words, there's not much use being 60 feet tall if you have sunk 70 feet into the ground :-)

Brian.

[Lance D. Allen]

Brian's points were things I did think of, but as I mentioned, it's mostly moot because he's already got precedent of the giant leprechaun being able to function fine. Go counter to precedent, and you're likely to find your player packing up his stuff and going home.

Caldis does make a point, though. If your game is so "high magic" how are your sorcerers dealing with the aging aspects? That's one definite balance right there. It's all well and good if your Leprechaun is now 1 ton, but if he's passed out unconscious on the ground, his +18 TO isn't going to keep his foes from hammering a steel spike through his temple and into his brain. Likewise, if he keeps casting like mad, he'll soon start feeling the effects of arthritis and rhuematism, among the other frailties which plague the elderly.

[prophet118]

hope his clothes and equipment grows (no not that equipment, perverts..lol)

hehe

[Mike Holmes]

And don't forget that if he's ten times bigger, then he's ONE HUNDRED times heavier.

Uh, actually I'm not sure. If ten times bigger means that he's ten times taller or 60' or so, and we assume that growth is proportional in all dimensions, then he'll be one-thousand times heavier. IOW, a 200lb. six footer becomes a 100 ton 60 footer.

Yes, that could be inconvenient in all sorts of ways.

I was kinda assuming that the "times ten" refered to mass, not height. If that's the case then that would only make the character about 13' high.

Mike

[Mokkurkalfe]

If he's lying prone, then his head might very well charge into a tree when growing. A huge leprechaun is also a easy-to-hit leprechaun. A longbow or three might get through all that TO.
Also, if his clothes grows as well, there will be a lot of textile. A few fire arrows should keep him busy.
He might have problems keeping track of whats directly beneath his feet, so snares and similar stuff should work wonders. Also, as noted before, he probably cant grow indoors.
A giant leprechaun is like a tank, and should be fought with anti-tank methods.

[Draigh]

tuna... i wish i had friday nights off so i could play in your game... Andy's fu is weak and Will couldnt magic his way out of a wet paper bag.  I would show those fools how quickly you could break the system with a mage and six months of downtime.  

G sez: "Whatever Tuna!"

[Bob Richter]

I found the new rules for Plague of the Giant to be...odd, at the least.

It says right there in the book that Growth can't add mass to the target.

So you're suddenly x' tall (say we're growing by volume. What's the cube root of 10?) but you're still only 200lbs.

THAT's why it's called a Plague, because you're very large, which makes you an easy target for arrows, but you aren't any Stronger or Tougher.

The original rules DECREASED your stats when you got big. I liked those.

[prophet118]

I found the new rules for Plague of the Giant to be...odd, at the least.

It says right there in the book that Growth can't add mass to the target.

So you're suddenly x' tall (say we're growing by volume. What's the cube root of 10?) but you're still only 200lbs.

THAT's why it's called a Plague, because you're very large, which makes you an easy target for arrows, but you aren't any Stronger or Tougher.

The original rules DECREASED your stats when you got big. I liked those.

same here

[Lance D. Allen]

I was thinking I remembered that as well, but as it didn't say it in the new rules, I went with what I saw.

I think it's possible that this was done because it is counterintuitive in a magical setting (as opposed to a scientific one, which the scientific explanations of sorcery often encourages) that bigger equals weaker.