Psychotic (or is It Schizoid) Game Design

[Jason Lee]

I just can't make words say what I mean.  It's like trying to say 'emulating the genre can't be done if the genre never has the heroes losing and you apply "realistic" rules.'  It just doesn't say what I'm trying to get across.  Saying 'going "what if" into the world that the genre is in, isn't honest about what made the genre great, it's just the world' doesn't even come close either.

I think the miscommunication here is that everyone is saying RPG's don't exactly emulate a genre.  Instead they draw from the source material to create something else - something which in fact has different rules than the source material.  Sometimes one of the rules of the new medium is 'realistic rules'.

[Marco]

Damnit, Fang, you're making me agree with Marco. :-)

Mike

Yeah, really. Cut that out!

-Marco ;)

[John Kim]

GURPS is a good example of 'reality based' mechanics furiously undercutting any of the aesthetic packages they sold for it.  As a matter of fact, I got an incredible kick playing it back when it was just Man to Man (the combat rules released prior to the publication of the game).  It felt like a complete let down when the Supers rules came out; back then I could understand why.  Now I do, but I'll be damned if I can put into words.  

As I recall, GURPS Supers does have blazoned on the cover something like "Superheroes meet the real world" -- so I think in this case your personal expectations were different than what they sold it as.  However, I certainly agree that the GURPS mechanics clash with the source material for many of the supplements, like say GURPS Witchworld.  They do have a large line of historical and factual supplements, though (i.e. GURPS WWII, GURPS Dinosaurs, etc.).  In general, GURPS is pretty up-front about its reality bias, which shows in its take on GURPS Supers and the original GURPS Fantasy -- both of which explicitly add in real-world elements rather than being straight takes on the genre.

[Mike Holmes]

Good point, John. This all goes to refute the idea that GURPS is the "do anything" RPG, and that it is only good for when you want a bit of human level "realism". So does it oversell itself as something more? Yes. But for a 1985 design it's not too bad.

But the fact that people still play GURPS despite the fact that this is really obvious once played says that what they're looking for is exactly "realistic" Fantasy. Or whatever genre. If not, people buy the source books and use other systems that cater more to the level of Sim or Nar that they are looking for.

This is just GNS preferences plain and simple, and I can't see why Fang has suddenly gotten all wrapped around the axle with the idea that people want to make something that emulates genres (genre is just the inspiration for the game or the sim). As soon as he admits that's not what all players want, the sooner we can move on.

Mike

[Jason Lee]

Way off topic, but...

As far as examples games other than GURPS that don't emulate a source material...

I'm making one...
Mike's got one...
So does Marco...
Fang sorta does too, for that matter...

If Jack, John, and deadpanbob had one (which they might, I dunno) we'd have a complete set.

Sorry, the weirdness of that...was, well, really weird.

[Le Joueur]

Good point, John. This all goes to refute the idea that GURPS is the "do anything" RPG, and that it is only good for when you want a bit of human level "realism". So does it oversell itself as something more? Yes. But for a 1985 design it's not too bad.

But the fact that people still play GURPS despite the fact that this is really obvious once played says that what they're looking for is exactly "realistic" Fantasy. Or whatever genre. If not, people buy the source books and use other systems that cater more to the level of Sim or Nar that they are looking for.

See?  "Realistic Fantasy" doesn't exist in stories, books, movies, or anything other than role-playing games, SCA events, and the like.  It has no source material!  All you've done is prove the point I'm failing to make!

Never mind.

Fang Langford

[Le Joueur]

As far as examples games other than GURPS that don't emulate a source material...

Fang sorta does too, for that matter...

I resent that remark.  Don't you realize that what I'm trying to do is emulate lotsa sources 'honestly'?

Fang Langford

[Jason Lee]

I resent that remark.  Don't you realize that what I'm trying to do is emulate lotsa sources 'honestly'?

Sorry, that's why I gave ya the 'sorta'...guess ya ain't in the gang. ;)

There are some elements I think people are agreeing with and some they are not.
I think it boils down to (correct me all if I'm wrong):
Agreement that reality emulation rules are not always necessary.
Disagreement that emulation of source material is necessary in an RPG.
Differences in GNS preferences.

The tone of the thread has shifted to something more conversational, most likely as a tension release from a stressful subject - a need to keep the environment friendly.  No need to give up, you can come back to the topic in a day or two once you've had a chance to collect your thoughts...it's not a lynch-able offense.

[Mike Holmes]

See?  "Realistic Fantasy" doesn't exist in stories, books, movies, or anything other than role-playing games, SCA events, and the like.  It has no source material!  All you've done is prove the point I'm failing to make!

And around and around we go.

Fang:"RPGs are for emulating source material, and they don't do that well."

Us:"That's only one use for RPGs. We don't care to emulate the sorce material at all so much as some cheap immitation that seems realistic."

Fang:"See, you aren't emulating the source material then!"

Who cares!

Mike

[Le Joueur]

Best thing I heard all day.

Let that end this thread.

Fang Langford