Name That Demon- building difficult demons

[jburneko]

"Small parts of reality" according to whom, Jesse? Not the guy who, instead of getting a promotion, dropped dead!

Heh, I guess that was a little cold.  I was actually very much thinking about being an author and the whole "No Myth" conversation.  So, on a metagame level I was thinking about an ability that basically allows the player's demon to over-ride whatever fact was last entered into the transcript of play and replace it with something else.  It's just that the very act of replacement also becomes part of the transcript.

But, yeah, from an in-world perspective that's pretty big deal, probably akin to major time traval and maybe shouldn't be allowed.

Jesse

[Rod Anderson]

I don't necessarily know that it shouldn't be allowed -- I just thought it was funny that the focus went from making time with girls to power over life and death!

Rod

[Michael S. Miller]

But, yeah, from an in-world perspective that's pretty big deal, probably akin to major time traval and maybe shouldn't be allowed.

Maybe it doesn't fit in Sorcerer... I mean, when the Sorcerer's new Demon says "I'll serve you in exchange for a steady diet of virgins" can the first Demon simply DING! "I'll serve in exchanger for a steady diet of ice cream"?

However, this is such a strong idea I think it deserves its own game. A game where the GM and the players barter back and forth as to what is real and what is not. If the DINGs become a finite resource, then picking and choosing what facts you edit becomes the heart of play. Very cool.

[Nev the Deranged]

<chuckle>  And the demon's name would be... Groundhog, right?  =P

Alright, I have a couple of toughies I've been giving thought to, one based on a character in a story of mine and another based on a cool idea I had for a character in Sorcerer.  They are kind of similar in some ways but not completely.

First the easier one.  I want a demon that will create a Warp field around my body at will.  This would allow me to step through walls, for instance; have any objects that might strike me (bullets, crowbars, runaway vehicles, falling I beams) simply bend themselves around me until I am out of harm's way.  I would be able to put my hand through any surface (including, say, the chest of that thug who's trying to intimidate me) and have the material of whatever it was simply warp away from my hand.  I'm envisioning cool things like simply dropping through the floor to escape from something, being unaffected by explosions, all that sort of thing.  

Now, I know Warped objects revert to normal after a while, but I wonder about the affect on organic matter, like people, trees, animals, etc.  So maybe Warp isn't the best way to go, but it's what inspired me to think of the character.  And yes, I'm aware that this comes off as a "character with super powers", I would throw in balancing penalties, need, desire, etc... I just want to figure out how to get the power(s) as I envision them.


Number two is actually a half-demon guy himself, who is living a relatively mundane life as a manager at a hardware store.  He's always been really good at untangling things, string, extension cords, xmas lights, etc... Unbeknownst to him this stems from the fact that he is the prophecied "Unweaver", a being with the power to unravel the threads of creation, thereby "unweaving" anything.  Obviously this power is a potential threat to all Reality, and his life quickly becomes hellish as various "do gooders" attempt to neutralize him... unfortunately forcing him to learn to use his power for increasingly questionable things as he tries to stay alive... will he become the evil force everyone is afraid he represents?  Who knows?  But how do I get this power to work?  I envision it as being able to touch something and having it simply "unravel" from reality... it's hard to describe, really.  I suppose you could look at it as an ability to break things down at any level from the mechanical (touch the car and everything falls off the chassis) down to the subatomic (touch the car and it simply unravels and ceases to exist) as he becomes more proficient with the ability.

Ideas?

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Your #1 can't be done with Warp alone. You'd have to have Travel, Armor, probably at least one form of Perception, and Special Damage in addition to Warp. Technically, when you "warped the floor" (in in-game terms) you'd be using Travel (in mechanics-terms). In the game-world, they look alike, but the mechanics (dice, numbers) would differ greatly.

(detail: Warp cannot affect living tissue)

All this is classic Champions-thinking: if you want your fire-ability to melt bullets as they hit you, then buy Armor (which, as a label, means nothing).

As for #2, based on your description (which is a mite vague), I'd say both lethal and non-lethal Special Damage, possibly Warp (for more minor uses), and Perception (for that sub-atomic thing).

Best,
Ron

[Nev the Deranged]

Well, #1 was based on ideas about creative uses for Warp.  I figured Warp alone wouldn't be enough.  And you suggested Armor before for the bullets thing, but Armor only reduces them to Fist attacks, which isn't the same thing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be twinkish here, I'm just aiming for a very specific power scheme, and trying to represent it accurately in game mechanics.  It's true this character would be incredibly powerful, but I envision him being part of a high power setting, something akin to, say, Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure or along those lines (which would be a cool Sorcerer setting on it's own, with the exception that Stands don't seem to have free will).

#2 was actually conceived long before I ran across Sorcerer, so describing his abilities in Sorcerer terms is kind of hard.  I suppose Special Lethal Damage, Special Damage, etc. might cover it.  

I have to admit, my thinking is geared more towards taking a specific "special effect" and thinking of creative ways to use it (I'd make a great anime hero, since so many of them seem to have that as their primary skill, IE "how to I take this very effective but very limited power and defeat the entire army of badguys who are way more powerful" kind of thing) than to taking "mechanic templates" and assigning special effects to them.  

Which is funny, because the last game I ran (for 4 months straight no less) was built firmly on my players doing exactly that- taking a list of (almost 100) "Traits" and assigning whatever descriptions or visual effects to the mechanics they wanted... you'd think I'd have gotten good at it, and when I'm doing the creating I guess I am...

I don't know why, but for some reason, the more Sorcerer excites me, the more stupid I seem to get about how it works... <shrug>

Aaaanyway... thanks for the suggestions.   I had another creepy sort of daydream/hyperkinetic fit today in which I envisioned a creature I can only describe as a "homonculous", a humanoid shape with no features (sort of like if a thin but very fit man had his face bashed in and then was covered entirely in a skintight leotard).  The thing was the "pet"/construct/familiar of some very powerful wizard... I'm not sure if there was more than one, I got the feeling there was usually just one but sometimes more.  The being(s) didn't have individual personalities, names, or features.  They weren't very intelligent in some ways, and could only be given simple commands; but were amazingly ingenious problem solvers- once given a task, no matter how seemingly impossible, they would find a way to accomplish it.  The wizard guy assigned his to guard his daughter when he went away somewhere for some reason.  The creature behaved very animalistically, sometimes like a cat, sometimes like a dog, sometimes like a monkey, sometimes like a frog... and sometimes like nothing recognizeable.  It could make noises, mewlings, growls, etc.  And it could manifest appropriate  features for a short time, nostrils to smell with, teeth to gnash, claws to fight, etc... never eyes though.  Of course it's senses were all amazingly keen regardless of it's current features, it was inhumanly fast, strong and resilient; and because of it's subtly malleable structure (which is what allowed it to move like all those animals, all of which move differently and have different limb and join structures), it was amazingly agile.  The thing I became (don't ask) intrigued and disturbed me, for various reasons; but I really liked it.  I know I haven't really posed a question here, and I guess I don't have one... sometimes these things won't let go of me until I get them out of my system, y'know?  I don't know... I'm tired... need sleep... goodnight.

[Mike Holmes]

Well, #1 was based on ideas about creative uses for Warp.  I figured Warp alone wouldn't be enough.  And you suggested Armor before for the bullets thing, but Armor only reduces them to Fist attacks, which isn't the same thing.

Sure it is. The temporary dice lost to the fist damage represent the character being distracted by the effect of the bullets melting around him. Or, if you want a direct in-game reasoning, he's slowed kinetically as the material passes through the field. Or it represents concentration. A lot of things it can represent.

If this isn't enough, then also take Vitality to represent getting those dice back more quickly.

No, there is no way in Sorcerer to totally negate damage. Anything that would do this has to be explained as the penalties being something else, or it's just not in the bounds of the game.

Nobody said you can do everything with the system. It intentionally disallows some things. Just as in Hero System where there's no ability to just be "Impervious".

Mike

[Mike Holmes]

I want a demon that can make a place stink so bad that everybody flees.

Mike

[Trevis Martin]

Heh...

Special damage non-lethal (gas)
Perception: enhanced smell conferred on target

I like it...

Trevis

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

I'd say Trevis hit it on the nose (whoop! whoop!), but I have a comment on Mike's description of the ability - it's described in terms of what other characters decide to do in its presence. That's not kosher in Sorc rules. The demon power or effect should be understood in Bang terms, not "what must happen" terms.

Interestingly, that strikes me as precisely the difference between classic RPG mind control and the various approximations thereof in Sorcerer.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

How are they going to learn if you keep giving all the answers, Ron.

How about this: can people come up with powers that the rules don't allow for other reasons.

Mike

[Nev the Deranged]

Sure it is. The temporary dice lost to the fist damage represent the character being distracted by the effect of the bullets melting around him. Or, if you want a direct in-game reasoning, he's slowed kinetically as the material passes through the field. Or it represents concentration. A lot of things it can represent.
...
No, there is no way in Sorcerer to totally negate damage. Anything that would do this has to be explained as the penalties being something else, or it's just not in the bounds of the game.
Mike

I pretty much realized this as I was thinking over the mechanical effects of damage, which are handled somewhat unusually, the "stun" (temporary) damage being a regular mechanic instead of a special one.  So I guess it's not such a different thing from what I was proposing.  

Basically I need to play before I open my yap about the game... holding my breath for the weekend >.<;;;

[Nev the Deranged]

Alright, here's a fairly easy(?) one.  

Jonathan (aka the Minotaur), has an object demon called the Labrys.  It has the power to Open and Close (Or Lock and Unlock if you want to look at it that way).  Anything with a lock or aperture or portal or gateway or door or whatever, no matter how large or small, simple or complex, no matter what would normally be required; the Labrys can open/unlock and close/lock ANY door, period.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Dave,

I think it's the "any" part which isn't supported by Sorcerer rules. There's always an opposing roll if a conflict is involved.

The quick answer to this ability is Warp + Perception, or probably several Perceptions. I might even imagine a very abstract Special Damage that could be factored in for purposes of "overcoming" various possible safeguards or other demon abilities that are involved.

Best,
Ron

[Nev the Deranged]

So, Special Damage, Warp, Perception(s), and a high enough Power would be enough to ensure a sufficiently high probability of success... that's good enough for Sorcerer use.

To be fair, I am throwing out ideas based on existing characters from my own stories and games, so I understand if the Sorcerer rules framework doesn't support all of them.  As you've no doubt noticed (and I think I said it before), a lot of my character concepts are focused on a very limited range of power- but extremely high potency (if not ultimate potency) within that area.  Obviously not all game systems are going to support such lopsided character design.

For the record, not all my characters are like that, but the ones that seem to lend themselves to demonic powers a la Sorcerer tend to be.

Here's the next one, which has been somewhat covered before, I think:

Void Epsilon, a demon that absorbs the essence of a being and incorporates it into itself.  It's physical form takes on some of the characteristics of the absorbed being, as do it's personality, memory, etc.  It's sort of like a doppelganger that never manages to make a complete copy, and instead just grafts a part of the target onto itself, both physically and mentally.  It CAN take the form, temporarily, of any being it has absorbed in the past, but it can't hold the form for more than a few hours without reverting to it's "base" form for at least an hour, or it risks being frozen into the assumed form, the risk increasing over time.  Like I said, it's most like a classic shapeshifter that is just not very good at it's ability.  Oh yeah, the absorbed beings are harmed by the absorption process, but it isn't always fatal.  The mechanics and limitations of the above can be worked out to taste.

Oh, and Ron?  Call me Nev.  I never go by my given name online. =>