Forge Monster Garage: Jesse James, GMSkarka, & Fancy Dan

[DP]

The reason that consumers think that D20 can do anything is because, simply, in the hands of any reasonably talented game designer, IT CAN.

Well-a, well-a, well-a.

Anyone seen Monster Garage on the Discovery Channel in the USA, in which motorcycle customizer Jesse James leads a team converting stock vehicles into specialized ones, i.e. turning a sports car into a golf ball collecting cart?

I hereby propose Forge Monster Garage: the d20 Challenge. Is anybody willing to create (or retool) one of their indie ideas as a d20 design?

Contributions would be either a) complete games or b) supplemental "strap-ons" that can fit on any d20 game. The strap-ons can add Narrativist mechanics or any other cool touch to d20. (I would love to see Long Pig created as a strap-on, for instance. Can you imagine Korgath the Mighty having nothing to eat but the corpse of Guessillbe the Cleric in a DnD3E game, and realizing weeks later he's developed a craving for human flesh?)

Is this a contest, in which the winning entries will see published form? Uh, sure, I guess. I have no money, though, so bear that in mind (nor any cool prizes: I sold my first-edition Gibson novels to the Half-Price Books in Bellevue, WA). Nor am I any good at layout or production; I'll try not to make this a darkly-reproduced ashcan with stick-figure art, but I can't make guarantees. This will be proudly published by a newly-established imprint of Mandrake Games, Black Modron ("System Matters. But we pretend like it doesn't.")

All entries must comply with the OGL and yadda yadda.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

You're daring me to do Donjon d20, aren't you?

[DP]

You're daring me to do Donjon d20, aren't you?

Of course not, Clinton. 'Course, if you're scared, I'd understand.

[Jonathan Walton]

You know...

I've been thinking for a while now that We Regret to Inform You the Gamemaster is Dead would be a cool way to introduce the d20 audience to GM-less play.  Kinda like Malhavoc's "When a God Dies" or "When a Star Falls" mods.

But it's exam time, so I don't think I can learn D&D3ed anytime soon.  Especially since I've never played or read any version of D&D, and would be starting from nothing.  Gimmee a month or so...

[deadpanbob]

Gimmee a month or so...

LOL!  A month he says, what a riot!

I think we should all talk Ron into doing Sorcerer d20.

Cheers,


Jason

[Valamir]

As a fan of the show, I think this is an entirely appropriate analogy.

Sure Jesse James and his mixed crew of top notch customizers and hobbyists can turn a stretched limo into a fire truck...but no matter how good they are, their flame quenching limo will NEVER be as good of a fire truck as...a fire truck.

Just like d20, or GURPs for that matter... :-)

[Ron Edwards]

A fine idea, so far, folks, but to justify this thread's continued existence, I suggest that real game design ensue, pronto.

Best,
Ron

[Jonathan Walton]

So, I had 20 minutes before my CS class today, and I'm already so far behind that, instead of studying, I decided to go read the SRD and learn how D&D is actually played.  Surprisingly, I found that the basic mechanics are actually well thought out and insightful; it's just when you tack on all those extra rules (which make me want to rip my eyeballs out, frankly) that it becomes ridiculous.  Exalted is the same way, unfortunately.  Must be what designers think "fantasy gaming" is supposed to look like.  Anyway, it got me thinking and...

We Regret to Inform You the Gamemaster is Dead
Or, "Jonathan Kills d20 and Takes It's Stuff"

The Basics

The GM is dead.  There is no one to play the NPCs.  There is no one to railroad the narrative.  There is no one to tell you what's in the next room or if you can spot any hidden doors.  Worst of all, there's no one to set the Target Numbers for your rolls.  Whatever will you do?

Fear not, young adventurers!  There yet remains hope!  You can all take up the mantle cast down by the GM and continue the story that s/he started!

How?  Easy.

To provide some order to the madness, everything in the game now takes on the structure of Combat.  Roll Initiative and order the players so that they are seated in a circle that represents the order in which they will act.  Initiative should be rerolled every session.

Now, look at your abilities, your skills, and your magical abilities (if you have any).  Realize that you are now completely unrestricted, with no one to set the Target Number for any roll except yourself.  You can determine how much you want to be limited.  If your character wants to pick up a mountain, you can decide that the Target Number is 12 or 5 or 1.  Whatever you like.

Next, look at the other players.  Realize that they can oppose any roll you try to make.  If you want to pick up a mountain and declare a Target of 5, they might not be too happy with you.  They could choose to oppose you at any time and make it impossible for you to be the god you are now capable of being.  Frankly, they must either become your pawns, your allies, your protectors... or they will have to be eliminated.

Thinking Big

Look at your abilities and skills.  Abstract them.  To quote the Mountain Laurel Law from Nobilis, "If a human can do something, Aspect can do it... a thousand times better."

Each of your abilities and skills is like a tiny bit of Aspect, representing a limited ranger of abilities.  However, when you open your mind to the infinite possibilities, you'll see that you can use your abilities and skills for much more than you previously thought.  No that the GM is dead, there's no limit.

Consitution enables you to resist physical damage and strain.  Think about this on the epic scale.  You could run for centuries without stopping.  You could jump into an active volcano.  You could hold your breath indefinitely.  You could resist an atomic explosion.  You could drink an entire ocean.  You could support the world on your shoulders.

The other abilities and skills work similarly.  Skills have a much smaller range to work in, but they also recieve the bonus from the associated ability.  The same holds true for magic spells, which are now all treated like Spell-Like Special Abilities and can be used as a standard action.  Fire an enormous hail of Magic Missiles.  Summon an entire army of undead.  Think big.  Be creative.

A Little Bit of Diplomacy

Now, taking turns around the circle, each player will be allowed to take their normal allotment of actions as usual.  Giving themselves Target Numbers for any rolls they have to make.  However, before any roll is made, the player must ask if there is any opposition to the roll being made.  If not, the roll happens and success is determined by the Target Number the player has named.

However, during the call for opposition, any player can choose to expend one of their own actions to oppose the action of another.  In this case, the situation is resolved using the rules for opposed actions, where the opposing player's roll generates a different Target Number for the acting player, even if that new Target Number ends up being lower than the one they chose for themselves.

Note the strategy involved here.  Players can risk failing by giving themselves higher Target Numbers and hoping that the other players won't think it's worth the effort (and action) to oppose them.  Or maybe they can encourage other players to do the things that they want to do, and leave the acting player to do as s/he pleases.

The Dead World

Without a GM, the world has gone dead.  All former NPCs are mindless zombies that do whatever players tell them to do (on a successful Charisma roll, with the Target Number determined as specified above).  Treat them according to the standard rules for familiars, minions, and the like.  However, being brainless zombies, hordes of NPCs can also be turned by all characters, no matter whether they can normally turn undead or not (though those will probably recieve a bonus of some kind).  More details on this to come later.

Any character can use one action to describe moving to another place and the general scene of that place.  In the case that another player disagrees with this narration or thinks the character has narrated too much, an opposed roll happens (the details of which are still unclear in my mind) and the winner recieved narration rights (though, of course, the winners narration could still possible be opposed by others).

There Can Be Only One

It's quite likely, even expected, that the characters will attempt to kill each other off at some point.  Whether or not this happens obviously depends on the player group and how well they adjust to GM-less play.  But if any one player has that Highlander spirit, it's likely to spread quickly unless the other players team up and kill the other off.  However, the goal does not necessarily have to be the quick and immediate death of all your enemies.  This can be more like a long TV series and not a single Highlander episode.

Think of famous rivalries.  Captain America and the Red Skull.  He-Man and Skeletor.  Austin Powers and Dr. Evil.  Sure, the characters will probably come into conflict during every session, but it can be epic combat that leads to them going home, nursing their wounds, and chipping away at the alliances of the other.

The End... for Now

So there's the basic concept as I see it.  Whether it'll actually work or not is something that'll have to be determined through more development and eventually playtesting.  However, in all likelihoof, this isn't something I'm going to write anytime soon.  But it is something to think about.

[Mike Holmes]

We Regret to Inform You the Gamemaster is Dead
Or, "Jonathan Kills d20 and Takes It's Stuff"

Dude, you're going to get me fired. Laughing too loud, damnit. :-)

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Oh my God. I want to play this game.

Best,
Ron

P.S. Special note: everyone reeeeeally ought to read the system rules for Talislanta, the Tweet one (1987), verrrrrrry carefully. Now go and look at the "operating system" in d20, i.e., the dice, the bonuses, etc.

[John Harper]

P.S. Special note: everyone reeeeeally ought to read the system rules for Talislanta, the Tweet one (1987), verrrrrrry carefully. Now go and look at the "operating system" in d20, i.e., the dice, the bonuses, etc.

This is a bit off topic, but Ron brought it up, so...

We were developing Tal4 (which is really just a tweak of Tweet's Tal3, which is a tweak of Sechi's Tal1 and 2) when D&D3e was in development. We would have beaten them to the shelves, but hey, shit happens. When D&D3e came out, pretty much all of our playtesters wrote us with messages like, "Dude! WotC is totally ripping you off! They've made everything work like Tal now." Heh.

There's an old message somewhere in the Talislanta list archives where someone suggests changing the name of the Tal system from the Action Table to the D20 System (since it uses only a single d20 and no other dice). Truth really is stranger, sometimes....

[nitpick: Tweet's version (the WotC one) was 1992. Sechi's Tal2 was 1989. The first Tal book (Chronicles) was 1987.]

[Mike Holmes]

Oh, you're that John Harper. Small world. :-)

Mike

[DP]

My thread! My beautiful thread--hijacked!

Seriously, is there anyone who wants to submit material for this project? My Life with Master d20, perhaps?

Consider Phil Reed's assertion that d20 material drove consumers to his site who then made non-d20 purchases.

Post mechanics ideas here or send me a private message indicating interest; the "ah, to hell with it" deadline for whether or not this project goes forward coincides with that for the Iron Chef Simulationism contest.

[Mike Holmes]

Seriously, is there anyone who wants to submit material for this project? My Life with Master d20, perhaps?

Now that would be a challenge.

D20 Universalis? Um, pretty much impossible, I think to meld these two concepts completely. But one could have a genericized D20, perhaps, and then rules for using Universalis for an overhead structure creator. That is, it would be "GMfull" play and the Metagame level purchases from Universalis would create in-game challenges on the d20 level.

Does the OGL allow for games to be smashed together like that? D20? Or would that violate some rule?

Mike

[Matt Wilson]

Would it be somehow fitting for me to do a d20 version of a game I haven't actually finished yet?

I want to see d20 kpfs.