Space Vixens: Serial Cinematic (Narrative) role-playing

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings All,

So, I've been working on bits and pieces of Crystal Spheres, started a Psionics Expansion, begun a Quick Start Rules (none of which are done or posted to the Yahoo group yet) when, while clearing out old files, I found something that made me go "Oooh, that might be a good way to demonstrate my meta-mechanic."

Meta-Mechanic?

Ah, yeh, my meta-mechanic.  Otherwise known as the resolution system currently used in Crystal Spheres- now named the LOAD™ System, since I felt it needed a name so it could be discussed as a entity unto itself- but this post isn't about any of this really.

Rather I want to ask for input about 1) how to best set up system to allow variable mileus to be played in Space Vixens and 2) what sort of narrative method would be best suited for a "serial" chapter by chapter narrative style game.  Which is what I envision Space Vixen to be.  Oh, yeah, and very yesteryear SF space babes wanting to rule the galaxy tongue-in-check with rayguns and the threat of hurting by meanie villains who also want to rule the galaxy.

Presently I have the CharGen system in place.  You'll be rolling on tables for descriptors, which you (the player) will get to use to describe your Space Vixen.  The characters will also have a number of stats, like "Pump", but right now I am looking for ideas about how to implement the narrative portion.

This is what I want:  Game sessions to be "chapter by chapter" begining with a synopsis that outlines the current "Movie" and stated goals, if any.  Each chapter should end when something major happens, like in the old cliffhangers, like when it *appears* someone has been killed or a villain defeated.  New chapters, of course, to open with that *twist* where the characters are revealed to not really be dead/defeated et al.

Any ideas?

Comments?

Thanks.


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[clehrich]

Kester,

Can you give us a little more to work with?  I mean, your questions seem to me so open as to be unanswerable.  Can you tell us a bit more about what you've got?

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings clehrich,

Can you give us a little more to work with?  I mean, your questions seem to me so open as to be unanswerable.  Can you tell us a bit more about what you've got?

Where, specifically, do you feel my post was lacking?

As I said in the background leading up to the main question character creation is pretty much in place, or outlined.  So the question isn't about that.  Also the conflict resolution system is. . . well. . . it's going to be based on the resolution mechanic found in Crystal Spheres.  You can click on "Crystal Spheres" in my sig, just be aware that it is a Yahoo group, but you can DL the latest Alpha PDF of it there.  (Amongst other things.)  Just mentioned that to give a bit of background, sorry if any of that confused things.

What I need are ideas, suggestions, pointers on how to set up a system to allow for a specific style of play; namely one fit to a "science fiction serial" in which the game session unfolds ala Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, or Zombies of the Stratosphere.  By this I mean the old serials that played in matinees at the bijou, not the feature length movies.

What I would like to do is have a solid set of rules to allow for a game to be set up, complete with the genre setting and a goal, but have it be a game representing the typical segment of thrilling action packed serials of yester year.  Players to build the story "chapter by chapter", as it were.

But what would be a good way to implement this?

*scratches head*

I was hoping one of the fine narrativist minded authors out there with experiance in this sort of thing would have a few pointers.  Apologies if my post was too vague, not sure how to be clearer.  Can you be more specific in what information you feel I should have posted?

*pauses in consternation*

Thanks for responding.



Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Alan]

Hi Kester,

I've downloaded your Crystal Spheres v.02 and had a quick look.

Your subject title and your first message both make references to "narrative" and "narrative method".  Do you intend this as a reference to narrativist priorities in Ron's GNS essay?  If so, I gotta say your current design is pretty solidly set in the S range of GNS: You've got character mechanics that define capabilities in the imaginary world, and a resolution system that focuses on tasks.  

So how are you using "narrative"?

... I want:  Game sessions to be "chapter by chapter" begining with a synopsis that outlines the current "Movie" and stated goals, if any.  Each chapter should end when something major happens, like in the old cliffhangers, like when it *appears* someone has been killed or a villain defeated.  New chapters, of course, to open with that *twist* where the characters are revealed to not really be dead/defeated et al.

Elements of a story can show up in any RPG, and can be simulated by formal rules - or they can just grow from the players (including GM) natural tendency to add meaning to any sequence of events.

As I learned in some of my early posts trying to understand narrativist design - neither rules for distributing narrative, nor rules for story structure promote narrativist priorities as Ron describes them.  

A game which favors narrativist priorities will offer the players the opportunity to address  value-judgements that interest them, and allow them to choose any of a wide range of possible responses to the issue.

If this is what you're looking for then we could make suggestions on how to add such elements to your game mechanics.

Or, if you want to make narration and story structure rules for your current design, we can help with that too.

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings Alan,

I've downloaded your Crystal Spheres v.02 and had a quick look.

Your subject title and your first message both make references to "narrative" and "narrative method".  Do you intend this as a reference to narrativist priorities in Ron's GNS essay?  If so, I gotta say your current design is pretty solidly set in the S range of GNS: You've got character mechanics that define capabilities in the imaginary world, and a resolution system that focuses on tasks.  

First, Crystal Spheres is Crystal Spheres, not Space Vixens.  :)

Crystal Spheres is a very traditional RPG (read: fantasy heartbreaker) and designed that way.  Space Vixens is, or I would like it to be, something of a story generating system.   (I never really dealt with storyteller systms so much of what others may take for granted I probably have not a clue, but here I am, and there ya go.)

Space Vixens is one of those "brainstorms" that we all suffer through from time to time.  In this case I want to take the conflict resolution system (or a slightly simplified version of it) and apply it to something different.  In this case a game designed to present episodic serial cliffhangers.

Apologies if that wasn't clear.

So how are you using "narrative"?

Ok, I am beginning to feel old.  Very old.

In the long long ago of black and white television, when there wasn't much to re-rerun, there were, usually on saturday morning, serials AKA cliffhangers.  Most were westerns.  Some of the more familiar ones are Zorro and the Lone Ranger, sort of.  But there was also Dick Tracy, Flash Gordon, Captain Video, Radar Men from the Moon, and dozens more.

The set up was simple.  You had a main hero/heroine with a few sidekicks, the black hat wearing cliched villains, and something threatening the world/universe every week.  These old shows were episodic bits of live action pulp fiction that followed the same core group of characters from week to week in near impossible adventures against near impossible odds.

That's the feel I would like to capture.

Episodic.  Minimal set up time.  Quick to play.

Or, if you want to make narration and story structure rules for your current design, we can help with that too.

There you go.  Structure.

Explorations and adventures self contained, yet easily picked up from next session.

But how to capture the structure, feel, flavor, and overall style of the serial cliffhanger with their death-rays and atomic disintigrator rays *and* the classics tropes of the SF genre through the 50s to the present and all the rest of it?

I believe I mentioned I'd like a way to establish the flavor/style of the setting to be played in.   But I'd like to implement something that is easy to use, like the dial on the stove top range.  All you have to do is turn it to the right setting to warm water, and a little further to boil an egg.  I can almost see how to set that up, but I need to have the methodology for the actual way the players generate the spontaneous narrative to really set it up, wouldn't I?

Not sure any of this really clarified anything.


edit:  I think I'll go finish editing those quick start rules together so people won't have to DL Crystal Spheres just to reference the core of the resolution system.  Might get too confusing.  Sorry about that.



Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Zamiel]

I can almost see how to set that up, but I need to have the methodology for the actual way the players generate the spontaneous narrative to really set it up, wouldn't I?

I suppose pointing out that the cliffhanger serials were anything but spontaneous narratives would be overkill here, no?  In fact, people went to the show expecting a rather rigid structure to be presented to them, perhaps with novel elements but the formulea was set in stone.

It seems to me that the best way to capture that sort of feel is to make sure your players are, in fact, in on it.  Before the session/arc, work with them to create a list of what Ron refers to as Bangs, places in the narrative where meaningful choices occur.  Find out what things they want to see.  Schedule them up front.  You might even go so far as to write up what kind of ending you're barreling toward.  (See other threads re narrative inversion and such on the Fora.)

Then, and only then, start back at the beginning with the characters.  The Bangs they've planned will act as signposts.  Your job, as Host, is to set the pace so that the tension builds as signposts are met.  Steer gently, let the players do most of the heavy lifting.  When you get to the cliffhanger climax, stop, pack up, and go home.

Keep to the formulea while introducing new elements at a measured pace and you're hitting the right feel for the serials.

[Tony Irwin]

Hey Kester, I'd encourage you to buy and read Inspectres. I'm not the best person to give you an analysis of how and why it works, but... it provides a structure for the scenes the characters will be involved in, which kind of focuses the incredible powers that the players have to influence the game so that everyone is working together to create something that feels familiar genre-wise (and is fun for everyone involved). The players can create plot objectives as they go along and get rewards for completing them (but are under no obligation to do so).

Anyway there're reviews at the Forge on it which can explain how it works better than I. It might be exactly what you're looking for.

[Alan]

Hi Kester,

Okay, it seems you've been using "narrative" in the general dictionary definition, rather than the technical meaning usually used here at the Forge.  

Yet, you also say

Space Vixens is, or I would like it to be, something of a story generating system. (I never really dealt with storyteller systms so much of what others may take for granted I probably have not a clue, but here I am, and there ya go.)

To my mind, all RPGs generate story.  If one stages a series of imaginary events, the human mind automatically strings them together in a narrative.  All RPGs are storyteller systems.

So I think you'll need to make further distinctions.  Rather than reinvent the wheel, I highly recommend using the conceptual tools often discussed here at the Forge: Ron's GNS essay, credibility theory and the separation and distribution of creative power (who says what is "real"), and the importance of reward systems.  

But instead of trawling through a bunch of messages and essays, you can experience these theories in action.  I've found that my brightest insights on all these subjects come from _playing_ the games.  I strongly urge you to buy and play several of the inexpensive games talked about here at the Forge.  Here are some:

InSpectres - as Tony suggested, IS is designed for spontaneous play with little preparation.  It breaks play into five phases based on the structure of a ghostbuster episode and succeeds in catching the silly macho of Ghostbusters.

Trollbabe - you want players to create story meaningful to them?  Try this game.  I've seen an amazing amount of cinematic structure show up in the one shots I've played - the rules allow all sorts of sudden cuts and stops, and the players use them naturally to recreate the pace of stories they experience everyday on TV and in movies.

Universalis - while not quite an RPG, this amazing game has lots to teach in terms of how to set up genre expectations, pacing, and structure - as well as the cool distribution and constant exchange of executive power.  

Really, seriously, Kester - try these out.  Playing these will widen your kit of conceptual tools, so you can use them on your own game design.

[Mike Holmes]

I think the suggestion about InSpectres is apt, but there's a disconnect. InSpectres will create incredibly episodic play. But what Kester wants it Serial.

How InSpectres works is easy. It tells you what scenes you're going to have each and every session you play. You just determine the outcome of the scenes in question.

For Kesters game, I suppose the analog would be to have types of scenes that come up. For example, maybe you roll for scene type (with a reroll if the same type repeats). Types could be, Exposition, Villain Cut-scene, Conflict set-up, Conflict Resolution, etc. Then when you reach the end of the play session the GM calls for the last scene to be a Cliffhanger, of course. Then each session starts with the resolution to the Cliffhanger.

Anyhow, you could build mechanics out of the effects of the flow of the scenes or someeuch.

This isn't well laid out, but just intended to give an idea of a way you can go.

BTW, the prime model for this would be the Dramatic Editing rules from Adventure! Make something like that the central mechanic of a game, and you'd have something like what you're looking for, I'd think.

Mike

[John Harper]

I'm working on something for my game Danger Patrol that may be similar to what you're after here. The goal of play in DP is to create a seven-chapter serial adventure in the style of Flash Gordon. Each session of play is one chapter in the series. The players (and the GM) work together to create the content for the chapters, gradually building towards the climax with the Evil Mastermind(s). The events of each chapter provide "evidence" about who is behind the current peril until chapter 7, when all is revealed and the Big Bad takes a beating.

The style of play is very much player-controlled to the point that no one (not even the GM) knows for sure who the Evil Mastermind(s) will turn out to be until the end. Within each chapter, the play group creates a Bang, a Twist, and a Cliffhanger (to set up the next chapter). At these 3 breakpoints, the players have the opportunity to influence the game on a meta-level, as moderated by the game system (which I won't go into here).

So... um, yeah. I seem to be just pimping my own game here, which isn't exactly what I meant to do. I guess what I'm saying is this: for my game, I wanted to give the players narrativist-type tools so they could have a say in how the story goes (what's important, who's involved, where it happens, and so on). The mechanics are there as a reward system, mainly. When a player plays their character in the "Danger Patrol style", the player gets metagame rewards that give her more story-power. To make it work for a serial (instead of episodic) structure, I require the story elements to "hook up" to the next chapter in the serial, and move the overall arc towards the big showdown in chapter 7.

So, that's my advice. Give narrativist tools to the players, but make them work for the serial structure, as opposed to solely working on the "what's happening right now" level.

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings Zamiel,

I suppose pointing out that the cliffhanger serials were anything but spontaneous narratives would be overkill here, no?  In fact, people went to the show expecting a rather rigid structure to be presented to them, perhaps with novel elements but the formulea was set in stone.

Exactly, the basic formulae for a serial/cliffhanger (or any novel for that matter) is what builds the genre expectation.  Whether or not they appeared to be spontaneous narratives, however, is irrelevant in game terms.  The spontaneous narrative has to germinate from the players, their actions, et al.

That's the problem, the hurdle, the bugaboo lurking in the dark.

I want a game with a rigid outline for flow of plot, yet one whose plot is generated spontaneously.  Sounds like a oxymoron, but there has to be a way to do it, and simply.

It seems to me that the best way to capture that sort of feel is to make sure your players are, in fact, in on it.

There will be a pre-game set-up.  Perhaps the segement in which characters are generated will also double as stage dressing for the actual establishment of premise, actions, and goals?  Maybe.

Still bouncing ideas off the wall.

Then, and only then, start back at the beginning with the characters.  The Bangs they've planned will act as signposts.  Your job, as Host, is to set the pace so that the tension builds as signposts are met.  Steer gently, let the players do most of the heavy lifting.  When you get to the cliffhanger climax, stop, pack up, and go home.

Ah, and that's the other thing.  Does this sort of game really need a GM?

Or would it be better set up as a group game generating a larger narrative?


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings Alan,

To my mind, all RPGs generate story.  If one stages a series of imaginary events, the human mind automatically strings them together in a narrative.  All RPGs are storyteller systems.

All RPGs generate a story, then there are storytelling systems whose mechanics are. . . not at all like xD&D, Palladium, or even RuneQuest.

In this regards I am referencing narrative as a catch-all, meaning as all definitions apply to it, and am seeking to find which singular methodology best applies.  A organic system in which the players tell the story without any need for a GM or a GM-centric game in the classical sense where everything is established and set in stone, as it were, and thus the players are given a setting, premise, and goal and the story develops around their actions in attempting to achieve said goal.

So, yes, all games have a story.  But not all games represent a story telling system that centers on narrative.

I strongly urge you to buy and play several of the inexpensive games talked about here at the Forge.  Here are some:

<...>

Really, seriously, Kester - try these out.  Playing these will widen your kit of conceptual tools, so you can use them on your own game design.

That is all well and good, thanks for the suggestions, but why should any of them interest me?  How do they relate to the questions I have about the setting tropes I would like to implement?

If any game meets the essence, conceptually, I would have thought it would be octaNE, as it uses established Cult Movie tropes to generate the style of play.  I am aiming for much the same thing, only I want game play to be serialized and the setting to run the full gamut of pulp SF, with the premise centering on the "Space Vixen".  Yet I haven't seen any mention of it (octaNE).  And what about Macho Women With Guns?

To me these seem like spiritually similar games.  True, I've never see the games, but I've read write ups.  Surprised no one has mentioned them.

My point?

Why have you suggested these game systems?  What it is about them, specifically, that you think I would find of interest in them?  Is it a specific chapter, a game mechanic, what?


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings Mike,

I think the suggestion about InSpectres is apt, but there's a disconnect. InSpectres will create incredibly episodic play. But what Kester wants it Serial.

How InSpectres works is easy. It tells you what scenes you're going to have each and every session you play. You just determine the outcome of the scenes in question.

Now that's what I'm talking about!

Thanks Mike.  I might just have to look into inSpecters.  :)

For Kesters game, I suppose the analog would be to have types of scenes that come up. For example, maybe you roll for scene type (with a reroll if the same type repeats). Types could be, Exposition, Villain Cut-scene, Conflict set-up, Conflict Resolution, etc. Then when you reach the end of the play session the GM calls for the last scene to be a Cliffhanger, of course. Then each session starts with the resolution to the Cliffhanger.

Spot on!!

To (badly) paraphrase the old cereal commercial: Mike gets it, Mikey really gets it.  

Anyhow, you could build mechanics out of the effects of the flow of the scenes or someeuch.

This isn't well laid out, but just intended to give an idea of a way you can go.

BTW, the prime model for this would be the Dramatic Editing rules from Adventure! Make something like that the central mechanic of a game, and you'd have something like what you're looking for, I'd think.

Hmm.  I was thinking of having the players create a basic synopsis prior to play (naming their serial and all that) maybe loosely establishing a beginning goal, have mechanics for plot twists and introduction of villains, but the key word is *thinking*.  I need a good, clear, concise, and KISS way to do this.

So, Mike, would you want to play such a game?

If so, what would you want to see in it?

If not, why?


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings Feng,

Nice site, BTW.

I'm working on something for my game Danger Patrol that may be similar to what you're after here. The goal of play in DP is to create a seven-chapter serial adventure in the style of Flash Gordon. Each session of play is one chapter in the series. The players (and the GM) work together to create the content for the chapters, gradually building towards the climax with the Evil Mastermind(s). The events of each chapter provide "evidence" about who is behind the current peril until chapter 7, when all is revealed and the Big Bad takes a beating.

Interesting.  That's kinda of in the ballpark of what I want to do.  Very close.  Only I would rather not set chapter limits.  I'd like the game to be an open ended serial that can run for one episode or up to, well, thirteen or more.  (Or however long player interest is maintained.)

Alas, while you present interesting ideas, no solid mechanics.  I know there are a lot of systems that have implemented the basic premise (besides octaNE and MWWG) but how to make everything come together in a serialized game that also is open ended?

So, that's my advice. Give narrativist tools to the players, but make them work for the serial structure, as opposed to solely working on the "what's happening right now" level.

Yeah.  Guess I just need to sit down and figure it all out.

And here I thought this flash-pan idea would be. . .  simple.  heh  Though I might just fall back on re-envisioning one of the systems that I do have in place, rather than focusing energy on creating a new mechanic.   Hmm.



Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Mike Holmes]

I was thinking of having the players create a basic synopsis prior to play (naming their serial and all that) maybe loosely establishing a beginning goal, have mechanics for plot twists and introduction of villains, but the key word is *thinking*.  I need a good, clear, concise, and KISS way to do this.

This may just be my odd personal preferences at work, but structure, structure, structure. Make sure all these elements come up like clockwork. Look for cool "triggers" for these things to come up. I'm not an expert on the genre, so I really can't give good examples. But study the form, find the elements that are crucial to the feel, and make sure that they come up when they should. Do this with accumulating "tension pools" or similar ideas.

So, Mike, would you want to play such a game?

If so, what would you want to see in it?

If not, why?

Mike the real player, or Mike the generic game player.

Personally I'm burnt out on Pulp, but that's in part because I've played in several pulp games of late. Further, I've also had my fill of Narrativist and strong Director Stance games for the same reason. But these are not reasons you should care about.

As I said in the other thread, who cares if I want to play it? Do you want to play it? Then make the game well so that others will want to play it, too. Genre means zero in terms of a market of many individuals with many desires. It's all execution.

That's why people say look to games like Trollbabe. It's because the mechanics in these games are suited to what it sounds like you want to do in terms of the "how to play". The subject material is unimportant, it's the underlying mechanics. I mentioned Advenure! not because the subject material matches, but simply because the mechanics that underly the subject material are well suited to it, and more importantly to how it sounds like you want to run your game. And that's what I want you to see.

Actually, Octane's a good one to look at, too. Everybody just forgot. :-)

Mike