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Hello out there,

I am new to TROS, maybe the first german member of this forum(?)
and I got a question about Beating.
Is the beat maneuver not too good? Especially there is no activation
cost and no disadvantage if the maneuver fails. Considering the
possible gain of rapidly deploying the opponents combat pool, why
should one not try a Beat after each pause?

One of my players used to be a fencer, and he told me that it is relatively
easy to defend against a beat (provided you see it coming) by just getting
your weapon out of the way.

Moreover it seems funny to me, that you are able to beat away a shield with
a rapier but not with a normal sword (in Sword&Shield-Style).

By roaming through this forum I came to  understand that in the first edition
of TROS the beat maneuver was considered too weak and useless and thus
had to be changed, but is it not too strong now?

Hoping that being a newbie made me miss some connection and thanking
you for your time is
Bernd

Quote from: BrasselHello out there,

I am new to TROS, maybe the first german member of this forum(?)
and I got a question about Beating.
Is the beat maneuver not too good? Especially there is no activation
cost and no disadvantage if the maneuver fails. Considering the
possible gain of rapidly deploying the opponents combat pool, why
should one not try a Beat after each pause?

Hi, and welcome. The beat maneauver is about where I would expect it to be, seeing as how I am learning the longsword and have used the maneuver repeatedly during drills. It is a very simple thing to do and is effective for what it was meant to do. The activation should be 0 because the beat action is about as complicated to perform as a cut. If the maneuver fails, well, you are out there and he has the chance to cut you up. He still has his dice, you do not. If you try to beat after each pause, you will be the victim of a counter or feint very quickly. Both of these are terrible things to be caught by.

Quote
One of my players used to be a fencer, and he told me that it is relatively
easy to defend against a beat (provided you see it coming) by just getting
your weapon out of the way.

Yes, a beat is easy to get by, if you know it's coming. However, I would like to know what kind of fencing he is doing? Modern Olympic or Sport fencing? Or is he learning a more historic form of fence, like Talhoffer, Lichtenauer? This will help me understand his mindset and just what type of swords are being used by him.

Quote
Moreover it seems funny to me, that you are able to beat away a shield with a rapier but not with a normal sword (in Sword&Shield-Style).

I am not yet learned in the Sword and Shield (Buckler) but from what I have seen from the other guys doing it there is no need to use your sword to beat when you have a shield to do it for you. When the shield is not being used, it would make sense. I believe that Jake mentioned in another thread that one could include whatever maneuvers made sense, and not exclude them simply because they were not on that list. (That Jake guy, chock full of common sense!)

Quote
By roaming through this forum I came to  understand that in the first edition of TROS the beat maneuver was considered too weak and useless and thus had to be changed, but is it not too strong now?

I don't think it is. It seems to fit right about where I find it to be in my training. You see, Jake is a student of Renaissance Fencing as well (Longswords, Sword and Shield, etc...) in fact he could probably kick my ass whilst using these weapons. He put the combat system together based on his experiences with these weapons and the experiences of those who used the other weapons he was not familiar with.

Quote
Hoping that being a newbie made me miss some connection and thanking
you for your time is
Bernd

Not a problem. Hope you have fun here.

First of all, thank you for the detailed answer, Salamander!
Especially your answer about why the beat maneuver is not available for
shield-users was very satisfying.

But I still think it would be advisable to beat after every possible pause.
To this point you said:

QuoteIf the maneuver fails, well, you are out there and he has the chance to cut you up. He still has his dice, you do not. If you try to beat after each pause, you will be the victim of a counter or feint very quickly. Both of these are terrible things to be caught by.

The first is true for any offensive maneuver described in TROS:
if it fails the dice are lost.
Hence this cannot be a reason not to use a beat. And I do not see why it
should be any more probable to be caught in a counter, as the counter
would work just as well if I had chosen to attack normally.
And as the feint is an offensive maneuver you cannot use it against the beat or
can you?
So why not beat if I have the chance?

I actually treat repeated maneuvers the same way as repeated feints, the more you do it the more difficult it is with increasing activation costs or in this case bonus dice to defend instead (makes more sense that way I think.

Quote from: BrasselBut I still think it would be advisable to beat after every possible pause.

So why not beat if I have the chance?

A beat has no offensive value whatsoever.

So if he sees it coming, he just calls an "Attack defense," throws in enough combat pool to make you regret it, and cuts you some nice new holes.

Beats aren't too powerful. In fact, they're almost never used in my games.

I use them all the time IRL and in TROS. They don't always work in either, but when they do they're worth it. Salamander did a good job of answering most all of that (I've got such good guys here).

Quote from: BrasselThe first is true for any offensive maneuver described in TROS:
if it fails the dice are lost.
Hence this cannot be a reason not to use a beat. And I do not see why it
should be any more probable to be caught in a counter, as the counter
would work just as well if I had chosen to attack normally.
And as the feint is an offensive maneuver you cannot use it against the beat or
can you?
So why not beat if I have the chance?

Indeed, why not. Go ahead. The disadvantage to a beat is that it doesn't actually hurt your opponent. Sims simple, but it's also true; in game terms, that if you can pull off a beat you can usually hit the guy just as easily, unless there's a range difference (then beats become very important). The counter is "better" against the beat because if it fails (a higher possibility because of the 2-dice activation cost) then the defender isn't in immediate danger (life still sucks in the next exchange, but that's what full evasions are for). So the counter isn't easier, but it's not as risky, either.

Hope that helps.

Jake

[quote="Bob Richter]

Quote
So if he sees it coming, he just calls an "Attack defense," throws in enough combat pool to make you regret it, and cuts you some nice new holes.

Are their rules I have missed to "see a beat coming?"
Please Note: I have the 1st edition, not the revised. (Anyone know where to find a money tree?)
It seems by the declaration in the round the defending PLAYER will always know a beat is coming because the attackers declares x number of dice to beat. Defender must parry or dodge no block allowed.

Most all of the changes from 1st to 2nd printing (Revised Ed) are available right here on this forum, including the revised beat maneuver. Um, does someone want to dig that up for me?

Jake

HERE it is... My bad I should of done a search before asking...

I hope my url worked... here it is to cut and paste if I can't use urls

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=2283&highlight=revised+beat+maneuver

Thank you all for so many good answers!!!

I am quite astonished how well this forum works both technically
and with so many friendly participants!

Thinking about all your answers, my main question is now thoroughly
solved. My problem turns out to be rather an error of thought. I was
not seeing that normally to get x successes you have to spend 2 times x
dice, which is just what the  defender looses. I guess the error comes
from the fact that we only played one TROS evening so far. Of course
we all "suffered" from "beginners luck" and so 2 times the margin of
success seemed to be A LOT.  

So I take back my qualm about the Beat Maneuver and am convinced
of the contrary now: It fits good into this extremely well thought
out combat system and is neither too strong nor too weak.
The hint that the counter is less risky against a beat was very
good as well. This provides a good answer against a continuous
beater.

I have some smaller follow-up questions though:

Is it possible to turn a beat into a feint?

If not, it might even be advisable in some circumstances to not
defend against a beat at all. One more good choice which adds
to the complex tactics possible in TROS.

Is it really physically possible for someone with a rapier fighting
against someone with sword and shield to beat away the shield?

And one last question: Salamander said that there is no beat in sword
and shield style because you can do just as well or better with the shield.
Looking through the sword and shield maneuvers the only similar move
I see is "bind and strike". But bind and strike only subtracts a single
die from the defenders pool instead of the two for beat.

Did I miss something (again) about the bind and strike maneuver?

Quote from: BrasselThank you all for so many good answers!!!

Thank you for the question. It forced me to pick up the book and THNIK!!!.... er THINK!!!

Quote
I am quite astonished how well this forum works both technically
and with so many friendly participants!

Yeah, this way Jake doesn't come to our houses and beat us.

Quote
I have some smaller follow-up questions though:

Is it possible to turn a beat into a feint?

I believe so, but then the beat does not happen and he has his dice to defend as best he can against the feint. You on the other hand have to spend a certain amount of dice, as per the rules on the feint (DFW1001 pp61)

Quote
If not, it might even be advisable in some circumstances to not
defend against a beat at all. One more good choice which adds
to the complex tactics possible in TROS.

I would recommend that you do something, or else you have no chance of gaining initiative and that just means the other guy will get to take another swing at you, and with you having less points to use against him... Remember the number of dice lost are dependant upon a margin of success in a contested event. You don't contest him and he could strip your whole Combat Pool.

Quote
Is it really physically possible for someone with a rapier fighting
against someone with sword and shield to beat away the shield?

Not neccesarily "beat away the shield", but to beat away the sword. Now I understand fully that a shield can do great amounts of damage, but I can grab the shield with my off hand, I would not try that with a sword in mid flight! If I try to beat away the shield instead of the sword I am asking for the ultimate in body modification.

Quote
And one last question: Salamander said that there is no beat in sword
and shield style because you can do just as well or better with the shield.
Looking through the sword and shield maneuvers the only similar move
I see is "bind and strike". But bind and strike only subtracts a single
die from the defenders pool instead of the two for beat.

Did I say that? [Checking Thread]....[/Checking Thread]

I sure did, by gum. Please allow me to explain. When using a beat it is only usable at the beginning of a fight, or after a pause. If you want to try and beat his sword to start or after a pause, by all means try. But I also said that you could use Beat if you choose to as per the comment about Jake being chock full of common sense. However...

WARNING! INTERPRETATION ALERT!

From what I can see there is some errata in the Beat example. I believe that Mik's TN to beat should be 7 as it is an attack on the other guy's sword and I see no reason for the 1CP activation cost Mik pays in the example. (I may just be stoopid, but bear with me nonetheless). This implies, at least to me, that it is more difficult to get those two - for - one CP deals on the other guy. In the Bind and Strike example the ATN of the Shield is it's DTN, a signifigantly lower TN most of the time, in the Bind & Strike example it is a TN of 5.

INTERPRETATION ALERT OVER!

Also the Bind and Strike can be used at any time during the fight to tie up whatever you want tied up. The beat can only be used at the beginning or after a pause.

*whooboy!* Methinks I need to have the author confirm/deny that interpretaion before you take it at face value. What say you, Jake?

Thanks again for the very detailed answers to my question, salamander!
And I should have quoted you correctly in order to spare you the
"Checking Thread".

I would like to comment on some of your answers. I see that you think
in terms of real fighting rather than TROS' combat system. I wish I
had such knowledge as well, because real fighting is what the TROS
system tries to simulate. (By the way, referring to one of your first
questions: my friend was a modern olympic fencer (modern five-combat
or whatever it is called in English) and he was very pleased about you
asking, giving him the opportunity to tell me some things about the
huge differences between modern and historical fencing.) But as I do
not have the experience, unfortunately in this discussion I have to
stick to what the TROS rule-book says.

Quote

Quoteif not, it might even be advisable in some circumstances to not
defend against a beat at all. One more good choice which adds
to the complex tactics possible in TROS.

I would recommend that you do something, or else you have no chance of gaining initiative and that just means the other guy will get to take another swing at you, and with you having less points to use against him... Remember the number of dice lost are dependant upon a margin of success in a contested event. You don't contest him and he could strip your whole Combat Pool.

Let us have a look at the example in DFW 1001, p 60: Mik performs his
beat with 4 dice. Given his TN of 6 (I agree it should be 7 for a
short sword, but this would only strengthen the point I'm trying to
make) there is a 50% chance for each of his dies to score a success
(it would be 40% for TN7).  So the footpad's player could expect that
Mik will score 2 successes and that the thug will loose 4 dies
accordingly. Defending against this would cost some dies as well
(especially as in the example the thug's DTN is 7), reasonably more
than 2 for each expected success. Consequently the thug in the example
looses 7 dies (3 for defending+4 outcome of beat). Had he not defended
at all, he would have lost 6. (And even those 6 just because Mik had
considerable luck). Of course the thug would have no chance of winning
initiative, but that chance was bad enough anyway to win with 3d-TN7
against 4d-TN6.

It is of course quite a different story, if Mik could have turned the
beat into a feint. Not defending against a beat would then be just
another way to say good-bye to this world.

QuoteNot neccesarily "beat away the shield", but to beat away the sword. Now I understand fully that a shield can do great amounts of damage, but I can grab the shield with my off hand, I would not try that with a sword in mid flight! If I try to beat away the shield instead of the sword I am asking for the ultimate in body modification.

Within the TROS system it would make good sense to beat away the
shield (as long as there is not a great difference in weapon ranges)
because

Quotethe defenders weapon (or whatever else was being "beaten") is knocked aside and cannot be used in defense on the following exchange (DFW1001,p60)

And I can see that beating away a shield should be possible with a
mass weapon or a sword. But I do not see how this is possible with a
rapier. I have even trouble to imagine beating away a big sword with
such a weapon, but maybe I just do not know enough about what a rapier
really is. (I keep thinking about what Musketiers use in Hollywood films.)

Quote

QuoteAnd one last question: Salamander said that there is no beat in sword
and shield style because you can do just as well or better with the shield.
Looking through the sword and shield maneuvers the only similar move
I see is "bind and strike". But bind and strike only subtracts a single
die from the defenders pool instead of the two for beat.

Did I say that? [Checking Thread]....[/Checking Thread]

I sure did, by gum. Please allow me to explain. When using a beat it is only usable at the beginning of a fight, or after a pause. If you want to try and beat his sword to start or after a pause, by all means try. But I also said that you could use Beat if you choose to as per the comment about Jake being chock full of common sense. However...

WARNING! INTERPRETATION ALERT!

From what I can see there is some errata in the Beat example. I believe that Mik's TN to beat should be 7 as it is an attack on the other guy's sword and I see no reason for the 1CP activation cost Mik pays in the example. (I may just be stoopid, but bear with me nonetheless). This implies, at least to me, that it is more difficult to get those two - for - one CP deals on the other guy. In the Bind and Strike example the ATN of the Shield is it's DTN, a signifigantly lower TN most of the time, in the Bind & Strike example it is a TN of 5.

[bold]INTERPRETATION ALERT OVER! [/bold]

Also the Bind and Strike can be used at any time during the fight to tie up whatever you want tied up. The beat can only be used at the beginning or after a pause.

So there seem to be considerable differences between what you can do
with a shield and the beat maneuver. Hence it would make sense to add
Beat (0) to the list of maneuvers for Sword&Shield and Mass
Weapon&Shield would it not?

Bernd

And now I followed Jake's link for the revision of the beat maneuver:

QuoteHERE it is... My bad I should of done a search before asking...

I hope my url worked... here it is to cut and paste if I can't use urls

There seems to be an extensive discussion on the topics we are talking about.

Quote from: BrasselHello out there,

I am new to TROS, maybe the first german member of this forum(?)

Nay, that would be me - that is, unless someone else steps forward to claim this right.

But, as you can see in my profile, your post-to-time ratio is WAY better than mine. Perhaps, it's time for me to stop lurking and start contributing.

I'll work on that. I promise.

BTW: Where do you come from? I live in Bonn and I'm just preparing my first TROS-Campaign set in the world of Westeros from GRR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire.

Quote from: Bomilkar

Quote from: BrasselHello out there,

I am new to TROS, maybe the first german member of this forum(?)

Nay, that would be me - that is, unless someone else steps forward to claim this right.

I just found out that Irmo signed in two months before me. So I humbly step back. That means, at least three Germans have bought the game. Let's hope that the consumer base will grow.