Questions on a new owner of the book...

[Morfedel]

Ok, I have the book, and have been reading it for around a week and a half, and a large number of questions have arisen. I apologize for the great number of them, and I appreciate any of you who take the time to answer them.

I want to apologize in advance; I have a LOT of questions here, and it might make answering all of them difficult. If you think its easier, let me know and I'll make the 20 or so odd posts to ask each one seperately.

[list=1]
[*]The Draw stat for sorcerers - is it only used for spells, such as Mana I-III? I'd think that it would be iinterwoven with sorcery replenishing without spell use, since it is a stat. It just seems strange to me to have a stat that only activates after a spell is cast.
[*]In an earlier thread, I asked where the stats for troll-spawn was, as it seemed to indicate that trollspawn were playable races, such as the fey and rock dwarves; I was told they weren't, but then I found this quote on page 16: "Even rarer than the gifted are the siehe: Elves and the Fey, dwarves, sprites, troll-spawn, etc. Players may choose to play one of these mysterious races with permission from the Seneschal." If it wasn't intended to make Troll-spawn playable, thats fine - I just wanted to make sure if this was a section needing errata / clarification or what have you.
[*]Halflings are priority C, while both gifted Humans and Halflings are both priority B; I would have thought that if Halflings were considered superior to humans, then Gifted Halflings would be considered superior as well. I'd be tempted, therefore, to make Gifted Humans priority C, and Halflings B, but I have a sneaky suspicion that its partially play-balance. Thoughts?
[*]While I am neither an expert, nor have I taken up an exhaustive study of medieval combat, I have studied a small amount, I was a member of the SCA, etc. I notice that while sword skills have a number of different entries for proficiencies (Sword and Shield, Longsword/greatsword, and Dopplehander), mass weapons have just one: Mass Weapon and Shield. Having done a small amount of fighting myself, I can assure you that two handed mass weapon fighting is every bit as different from one handed mass weapons and shields as two handed swords are from swords and shields. So, I'm a bit befuddled on the decision to make mass weapons of all sizes under a single category, after having several different categories for swords. What was the reason for this decision?
[*]I don't understand the weight chart. Could someone explain to me how to read it? :)
[*]Polearms and Staves: In conjunction with the question two up from this one, I haven't fought as much with staves and polearms as I did with mass weapons, swords, etc - but I am curious on why polearms and staves are covered by the same proficiency. From my limited knowledge, my impression is that they are entirely different weapons and use entirely different styles.
[*]I may have been misinformed, since I've seen several games now do this, but I had thought that Morning Stars were what flails have been referred to by most games. That is, I thought, historically, that Morning Stars were spiked balls on chains. (side note / trivia: you weapons history buffs may want to verify this, but I had heard that Morning Stars were actually originally called Mourning Stars, because the wives and daughters would start mourning any knight who went out to fight against one bearing a Mourning Star. If thats actually true, its a very fascinating bit of trivia).
[*]Is fighting with a single short sword governed by Dagger or Longsword? And are there proficiencies for fighting with two weapons other than A Case of Rapiers? Say, two daggers, or two short swords, etc?
[*]The skill of herbalism talks about using it for healing and poisons, etc. Yet, I could find zero guidelines on how this would work, on how poisons would work, etc. Are there any rules on this?
[*]As for the question above, so too with traps. there are skills listed for traps, yet I could find no guidelines on how traps might be built, function, how they might deliver their effects, etc. Are there any rules on this?
[*]Magic Items: I'm not asking for a D&Dish Ye Olde Magic Shoppe, but even the best fantasy stories have such items; harken back to Tolkien as the granfather of all, and we hvae Glamdring, Orcrest, Sting, the One Ring, etc etc etc. I see no rules on magic items of any kind. I do think magic items should be very very rare - but I think they should exist in the game. Is it the intention to leave them out entirely, cover them later, or are there guidelines somewhere on them now?
[*]Sorcery and Books: In the Book of Sorcery, it says that Sorcerers without access to books and such have much greater difficulty improving themselves, but there are no guidelines or details on what kinds, amounts, etc, of books these might be.
[*]Hit Locations and Armor: The rules on combat discuss hit locations and protection vs armor; but it doesnt go into any details on what locations are protected by what armor. For instance, there is an example where the neck is hit in combat, and the person beheaded. What protects the neck? A coif? A Pot Helm? A Full Helm? A Leather Jack? For all the details on hit location, I'd think there would be a blurb on all the locations shielded by armor would be - did I miss the text on this?
[*]Chain Coifs and Helms - I'd assume their Armor values stack?
[*]I'm a bit confused on the fuctions and interactions of some maneuvers. In specific, if I use half sword as a maneuver, is that really just "changing" the weapon, and using the other maneuvers with the new ATNs? For instance, switching to half sword, would I still be declaring, say, cut, thrust, etc?
[*]Bind/Strike: when used with a shield, would this be penalized by weapon length? for instance, lets say I'm using a medium length weapon and shield against a long weapon, and I want to use a shield punch as a bind, then rush in for the strike... will I still suffer the -1CP penalty?
[*]Rounding: How do you round; up, down, or to nearest? for instance, when performing the Beat maneuver against a longer weapon, it says you cut the penalties in half. If you would only lose 1 cp, do you lose 1 or 0? And with Simultaneous Block/Strike, where the dice doesnt divide with the smaller being half the larger in even numbers (say, with an 8 die pool, for instance?)
[*]Magical Damage: I have problems with the generic damage table for magic. Summoning a lightning bolt to strike your foe, from what I can tell, would never kill someone, just cause shock and pain. Reading statistics, lightning will quite handily kill someone; and in reference to a fire from another thread, a hot enough fire will quite definitely kill someone, and almost instantly; i have a friend who is a firefighter who once walked into a fire so hot it melted his protective faceplate, and he would have died instantly. Seems to me that there should be a damage table for these kinds of instances, where death in fact can occur.
[*]Referring to the previous question, I am uncertain how things like summoning lightning, throwing a ball of fire, or manipulating weather would occur. The three physical vagaries involve growth, shaping, and movement - ok, weather might fit under sculpture, but what about summoning a physical effect from nothing? Summoning is spiritual, not physical....
[*]Referring to  the question two up: death can occur without blood loss - say, a broken neck for instance. Are there any plans on covering this, or is blood loss considered to reflect these circumstances too? Additionally, pain and shock removes from dice pools, but what about other effects? for instance, my move stat isnt a dice pool per se; if I get hit really really badly and have a lot of pain... if I manage a full evasion by some miracle, then run, how would I be slowed down?
[*]I highly suspect I missed this, but what does it mean when it says Shock or Pain damage received is ALL?
[/list:o]

Thanks for your patience. :D

[Nick the Nevermet]

Lessee... which do I know off the top of my head (my book is on loan)

I'll let someone else who knows magic & the non-human races answer your questions about those.  I'll also let someone who knows more about combat, real or TROS, to comment on those questions.

#8
On the subject of 2 shortswords and such, as a general rule, the styles that exist currently are less organized by what the weapon is and more by how it is used.  A long sword, for example, could theoretically be used for Sword & Shield or Broadsword.

The result is if you pick up a weapon, you have to asked how is it getting used?  If someone uses a shortsword, they could take proficiencies in sword & shield or dagger from what I can tell.  A person using two short swords would most likely use the case of rapiers proficiency (though this is a rules approximation; setting-wise the two would have as much to do with each other as karate and kung-fu)

#9
I do not know of many hard rules about herbalism.

#10
Same as above.

#11
Do a search for magic item threads in this forum.  There have been a few.  The current view involves making weapons magical by giving them their own spiritual attributes that the user can access.  How this exactly works, however, depends on the poster

#12
Keep in mind that rules take away the ability of players and the GM to decide what makes sense in that case.  Sorcery especially, in particular when it is as open ended and as powerful as it is in TROS, requires some 'in the field' decisions by the GM.  

#13
[*]Hit Locations and Armor: The rules on combat discuss hit locations and protection vs armor; but it doesnt go into any details on what locations are protected by what armor. For instance, there is an example where the neck is hit in combat, and the person beheaded. What protects the neck? A coif? A Pot Helm? A Full Helm? A Leather Jack? For all the details on hit location, I'd think there would be a blurb on all the locations shielded by armor would be - did I miss the text on this?

This has been pointed out numerous times.  Several people want it to be included in Flower of Battle, a supplement coming out for more battle information.

#15
That is more or less the correct interpretation, IIRC.  Half-swording changes the stats of your weapon.

#20
If a wound doesn't kill instantly, but will kill, then yes, blood loss covers that.  A broken neck, however, probably would kill instantly.  I would say, then, that a broken neck is something like a level 5 injury to the guy's neck.  Most level 5 injuries mean death, regardless of blood loss.

#21
All means the entire combat pool.  If you have 25 dice in your combat pool, and you take an injury with an "all," your CP is 0

[Morfedel]

So, let me ask you this... since Shock rolls over, even to the next round....

Well, I guess if Shock and Pain both are All and All, it doesn't really matter. Shock drops it to zero, then pain keeps it there. Ok, thanks for that, and the rest of your answers....

[Jake Norwood]

Yikes! Here's few from me.

2. The inclusion of Troll spawn there can be considered a typo for now.

3. You'll love this...the racial priorities are not about balance. They're pretty arbitrary and represent more "frequency" than "utility." Thus halfling gifted are about as common as human gifted.

4. Honest answer? Not enough is known and documented historically to imply that mass weapons are divided into significantly different schools. The exception is the pole-axe (which could be interpreted to mean all 2-handed mass weapons, I suppose).

6. It's the same thing. Really. All the historical masters agree with me on this one. So does all my personal experience. There are differences, but they're too small to really quibble over, and are immediately self-explanatory to a trained individual such as your TROS characters.

7. My research says it's a spiked club. I could be wrong.

8. A single short sword is either cut-and-thrust or sword and shield, your choice. Other 2-weapon combinations are not well attributed historically, which generally (but not always) means that it doesn't really work IRL. 2 short swords is probably best handled with cut-and-thrust.

9. Not yet.

10. Make up your own. That's half the fun!

12. That again depends on your vision of weyrth or you game world.

13. No, because it's pretty complicated. Get palladium's arms and armor book and when you roll on the d6 chart, look at the picutre and make a common sense judgement. We'll be including somehting like this in TFOB.

14. No armor values ever stack. Keep the best one.

15. All half-swording is thrusting. While some slicing (not cutting) is possible IRL, it's negligible here.

16. Yes, you still suffer the penalty.

20. In my games, BL is all internal damage.

WHew...

Jake

[Morfedel]

I have a few responses to your, er, responses. :D

I didn't get a few of the Qs answered. I assume there was a reason, so I don't want to badger you, but I will be anxious to hear the rest. I didn't get the answers on:

#s 1, 5, 17-19, and 21. #5 isnt important to me, but the others are....

I also have some comments on the following of yours, Jake:

[list=1]
[*]Concerning #7, you may well be right; when i was around 15 years old, i was told it was a morning star, and the origins of it being called a Mourning Star, by someone who appeared knowledgable, but that could be entirely false.
[*]Concerning 9 and 10, herbalism, poisons, traps, etc., I mean no insult, but i think it was a mistake to not include at least some basic guidelines to it. I mean, people will see these lists of things the skills can do, and not even the vaguest hint of a guideline on how these skills are applied, while seeing all this massive details on combat, for instance, and magic, even though magic is said to be incredibly rare. From the stance of a customer, I find this a negative point of the book, as I, again as a customer, would expect at least rough giudelines.
[*]#14: why would someone wear a chainmail coif with a helm, then, if the armor for the coif isnt gained? It says the one could be worn with the other (and from SCA experience, it has been done before.
[*]#15: half swording: what tactics ARE possible with half swording then? Can you beat with it? Bind and strike? or is thrusting the only accepted maneuver? I assume the latter, but I wanted to confirm.
[*]#20: what about the effect of damage on non-dicepool effects, such as running?
[/list:o]

Thanks. Most of these questions were merely clarifications i'm asking. I will warn you now, though, the lack of guidelines for herbalism and traps, even a paragraph or two, I find, honestly, incredibly irritating!

And I know, "I could make up my own," but honestly, i could make up my own combat rules too if i wanted. when I buy a game system, I expect it to, if it mentions the ability to do something, to actually give at least vague guidelines on doing so... otherwise, I might as well create my own game system. I mean, you include guidelines for things like stealth, so I'd think the other skills would warrant the same attention to details.

Anyway. Thanks for your time. I'm not completely blown away - frankly, and this might sound like a flame, but trust me, its not intended this way - but I consider leaving out guidelines on things like the traps skill to be a mistake. And this system doesnt blow me away - although a large part of that is because I'm not a big fan of dice pool systems (with the exception of Godlike).

But I do like the game, quite a bit. Enough that I'm wanting to run it. But it has some flaws, as I pointed out above, that, IMHO, should be considered and ironed out, errated, etc.

Thanks for your time.

[Spartan]

[*]#14: why would someone wear a chainmail coif with a helm, then, if the armor for the coif isnt gained? It says the one could be worn with the other (and from SCA experience, it has been done before.

You'd wear both because a pot helm doesn't cover your neck, but a coif does.  Of course, if you want certain armours to stack, then do it.  I'm sure someone has come up with alternative stacking rules... I think Durgil was working on it.

-Mark

[Jake Norwood]

Mark is absolutely correct concerning the coif.

As for traps and herbalism...this isn't a traditional dungeon crawl game. TROS isn't about herbs or traps. What are traps? Automated weapons. Pick what works.

Herbs? What else are we going to write supplements for? Sheesh.

Jake

[Thorbrin]

Hello, Spartan not to be a pain but some Pot Helms do cover the neck.
Depending on design and what period you are refering to anyways.
The helm that I wear rests on my shoulders, and I wear a coif under neath it. I often get mocked bye my fellow "knights" about being the neckless warrior.
Honestly the coif does nothing for protection wise to my head. It would take a howitzer to crack that helm open. But the coif does help dampen the sound of blows cracking against your head(that annoying clang !)
It also helps stabalize my helm, and an obveous point the coif would offer some form of protection when you are not wearing your helm.
In my opinion the coif has too high an armour value anyways.
The coif and the skull cap(padded  hood) you wear under it would do little to protect your head against a solid blow, perhaps a AV2 would be more accurate?

[Brian Leybourne]

Morfedel,

For the rest of your questions, err..

1. Yes, I believe that's all Draw is used for at present.

5. Use your judgement as to how much equipment and body weight the character is carrying around.

17. Round down in all instances.

18. Use common sense as to whether someone will die or not. It's pretty hard to cover all possibilities on a single "generic" table, as you can probably imagine.

19. Search the forum (you might start with the sorcery threads outlined in the "Read here First" sticky at the top of the forum) and you'll see plenty of discussion as to how to do various things with magic.

21. All simply means all. That's easy when it comes to pain, but less easy when it comes to shock, since all it seems to suggest is that you zero shock, which means a full refresh the following round. If instead of All you had had shock 20, there would be MORE effect since some of it would take effect the following round as well. To counter this, I play Shock: All to mean reduce to zero this round AND next round (that's how I do it in the combat sim also). Note that the distinction is rarely important since that result usually means you're screwed anyway.

You're right that there is nothing for herbs and traps etc, I can honestly say that this kind of thing rarely comes up in play (IMC, anyway), TROS is more about heroic drama, not creeping through dungeons in search of gold and dodging traps. Also, although there is no herbalism info, there is info on animal venom(s) in OBAM which can be used for poisons etc.

Brian.

[Spartan]

Hello, Spartan not to be a pain but some Pot Helms do cover the neck.
Depending on design and what period you are refering to anyways.

Then you may have to houserule that for your campaigns.  My TROS campaign is set in Hârn, which has fairly primitive armour (mail being the most common), and no articulated plate.  Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some armour stacking rules, but at the level of granularity that TROS operates at, it's not really worth it.  I just deal with it and move on.  You could always give the coif a bonus against the disorienting blows to the head that are outlined in the combat section.

In my opinion the coif has too high an armour value anyways.
The coif and the skull cap(padded  hood) you wear under it would do little to protect your head against a solid blow, perhaps a AV2 would be more accurate?

Maybe.  I'm no authority on TROS or real armour, and I don't see anything wrong with making leather/quilt AV 1, mail AV 2, plate AV 4 or 5, and then stack them, if that fits your game better. :)

-Mark

[Lance D. Allen]

5. As for the weight chart, do you mean the one for determining the weight of your character? I'm going to assume you mean that one.

Determine your character's height, either by choosing it, or using the chart on the facing page. This is done by combining the attributes as described in the upper left corner. ((ST+TO)-(AG+EN) I believe.. I'm working entirely from memory, as my books are in the car, and I'm too lazy to go get them right now) go down the chart on the left, then cross-reference to which type of race/gender you are, then roll your D10.

Take this height, or the one you arbitrarily chose, over to the other chart. Use your EN to find the row on the left hand side. If it is under 4, determine if your character is scrawny or portly and choose the less or greater base-weight accordingly. If the character is female, adjust that base-weight accordingly. Now, look at the height average for the type of character, and compare your character's height to it. For every inch over average, add 5lbs. For every inch under, subtract 5 lbs.

I personally like to use the chart, because it creates characters of differing heights and weights, rather than the round numbers I usually come up with, and also makes them fairly realistic.. and realistic weights are important if it ever comes down to wrestling.

19. Summoning physical effects (fireballs, etc.) out of mid-air is not possible in TRoS. While it has been determined on these boards to be possible to throw a fireball if you use highly scientific explanations of sorcery (which I don't, so no fireballs in my world...), it specifically states under the heading "Limits in a limitless world" that conjuring something from nothing isn't doable, along with resurrection. If, however, you wish to make it possible in your game, ignore these rules, and modify summoning to fit.

On herbs and poisoning.. For medical herbalism, I'd simple use successes on an herbalism roll to help counteract whatever disease, or as a supplement to first aid/chirurgery for healing. For poisons, I will probably be using some variants on the aging/disease rules if it comes up before I can get my hot hands on OBaM.

On gripes about things missing, I'll nicely paraphrase something that was once sent to me in PMs.. Have you designed, written and published a game lately? It was a humbling question for me, because I've been in the process for years, and it is not at all easy. Trying to write a game that is not only good, but includes everything that everyone could possibly want, on the first go-round is nigh impossible, and I think Driftwood did a damn good job of it. On the other hand, if you've got some ideas for how poisons and traps could be handled, you should definitely feel free to post your ideas here, and we'll be all too glad to help you bang it into something complete, and something that might even go into an official mini-supplement, with your name on it.

In closing, a question; Whatever happened to "The Lure of Gold"?

[Morfedel]

sigh....

Jake and Brian:

sigh again.

you know, just because I ask about herb and traps doesn't mean i'm looking for a dungeon crawl. I'm not. even when I ran D&D, I rarely ran a dungeon crawl and, when I did, it was with a very specific goal in mind, not to crawl and hack.

I understand you may run into that mentality a lot, but that wasn't the reason for my question.

The reason for my question is simply this: If you are going to put something into the game, there should be at least some vague guidelines. It doesnt have to be a by-the-numbers rules set like D&D and other, similar games use - but there should be at least SOME guidelines. For example, Sneak provides guidelines for TNs, and the effects. So do almost all the other skills.

Herbalist and Traps do not. More to the point, it seems that poisons would be the tools of assassins, and perhaps rich nobles might have important things trapped, etc etc.

Sure, I could make this stuff up on the spot. But i could do the same for combat rules, magic rules, or what have you. If a game is going to be presented with a set of rules, I dont think its entirely fair to include a set of skills, provide no guidelines whatsofever for them, then say "make them up on the spot" or accuse the person on the spot of being a dungeon crawler.

I mean, am I being entirely unreasonable here? When a game goes into such great detail into combat, and has a rich magic system, is it asking so much to ask for just a paragraph or two to give some guidelines on such items?

If it was something that was said "Oops, we made a mistake, here is the errata," thats one thing, but i get the impression there was no intention for such material in the first place.


wolfen:

Do you ever make a judgement call on a novel after reading it, or a movie after watching it? I certainly do, and I cant think of a single person who doesnt.

By the same token, as consumers who spend our money on products, we each have certain things we expect to be considered a "good" game, and we each have a right to our opinions and criticisims.

Otherwise, using that logic, we are each going to have to make our own movie before we can offer our criticisms on it.



As an aside: I'm not saying the game sucks because of the lack of trap rules or herbalist rules. Frankly, if i hadnt seen the two skills in the book, i'd prob not have given it a second thought.

But I've always been of a mind that if you are going to include a skill, power, ability, stat, or what have you, in a set of rules, then there should be some guidelines to it. It doesn't have to be massive or numbers-intensive, but just a paragraph or two would do.

Look at Sneak as an example: it has guidelines on how it would be used, target TNs, etc. And it only took a paragraph or two. The same could have been added to herabilist and traps, just something vague and quick.

when I see it isnt, the first thought that occured to me was that something was left out, kind of like looking at either an incomplete product or a mistake that had to be erratated. and it wasn't a sarcastic insight, just the first gut reaction that occured to me.

and i dont think I'm so odd-balled that I'd be the only one. I just happened to pick a small part of a very large game and let it get to me, like a grain of sand underneath a suit of armor.

Otherwise, while I had some questions I wanted clarifications on, I really like the game a lot, and I'm going to be trying to get my game group to try it out.


PPS - I gave the game a review on RPG.Net. It should be up in a week. It, er, isn't entirey glowing, and I mentioned my pet peeves, and one area I might have been overly sarcastic on, and for that I apologize in advance. Overall, though, I gave it a good review, and gave it a 4/4. Just understand I was being honest, and not trying to flame, eh? :D

[Morfedel]

One last comment, before i get flamed, please.

I'm not trying to insult. i'm trying to give what I would call constructive criticism. If I come off as being too aggressive or too hostile, please understand it isnt my intention.

However, I also want to ask you to consider my point of view, and understand that I may not be the only person who has bought the game and felt like this. and if I felt that way, then there is a good chance that others feel that way too.

And as a consumer, i feel my opinions are every bit as valid as anyone elses. I'm not saying that a revamp is in order; but perhaps at least the concession that either an errata or a rules addition in one of the suppliments would be in order.

And perhaps i was a tiny bit resentful that two people made a reference that suggests I might be wanting to run a dungeon crawl. I do those on rare occasions, but I havent done something like that as a rule in a long, long time.

I just think that if you are going to include something in a rulebook, there shyould be guidelines for it too. Otherwise, its like saying, "Yeah, there is combat in this game too...." and not presenting the combat rules.

Although, granted, traps and poisons would play a far less role than combat. but if I wanted to, say, play an assasasin that dealt in poisons, or if i were a noble that put that great "A" in social class and wanted my most valuable possessions in chests with traps... well, there isnt any rules on how they work, how a PC would create them, or how a trap would harm people who fail to disarm them.

Again, I could run a game without ever using these rules, but once they were mentioned in the book, I wanted to see guidelines on them too.

(Oh, and to reiterate; my upcoming RPG.Net review has some hard things to say about the game, and one thing that might come off insulting, and for that I apologize in advance; I just said things as I saw them, with all honesty, and nevertheless I gave it an overall positive review.)

[Brian Leybourne]

Morfadel,

I can't put works into Jake's mouth, but I didn't and I'm sure he didn't mean to put any kind of value judgement or assessment on your roleplaying, you took us the wrong way.

I guess what it comes down to is priorities. There's only so much you can squeeze into a book, even one as huge as TROS, some things have to get skipped, and the idea is that you catch them later in suppliments or new editions I guess.

Clarification: Note that I wasn't involved in writing the rulebook, that was Jake, Rick and Ben. I am, however, speaking with some experience as there was a lot more I wanted to put into Of Beasts and Men but couldn't because it was getting too big as it was. Same thing.

Anyway, my point is the priorities thing. Not everything can make it into the main rulebook, and Jake put in what he felt was important at the time.

Anyway, I think we've bashed this to death. Hopefully all your other questions have been answered to your satisfaction?

Regards,
Brian.

[Morfedel]

Ok... thats understandable. I guess things like that can take a back seat.

Are there even rules in consideration for the time being? If not, I'll cobble my own together... but if so, then we should perhaps make a PDF with them.