Argonauts: Narrativist d20 Supers?

[Jonathan Walton]

Replying to myself...  Clearly a sign that I'm a loser :)

Anyway, I've synthesized my own concepts and the fabulous suggestions I've gotten here and created something like a proposal.  It's basically a draft of what I plan to send Green Ronin when I apply to use their "M&M Superlink" logo.

http://www.godmachine.org/argonauts/

At this point, since this looks to be a "quick and easy" project (famous last words, I know), I'm thinking that I might sit down and do this in a couple of weeks (writing, art, layout, everything).  That way, I could try to build some recognition for 1001 Designs and myself, before I release Ever-After in the early Fall.  This comes from Phil Reed's experience and some other comments, where getting some attention for d20 stuff carries over to non-d20 stuff.

Still, mostly looking for comments on the document above and not on my business plan.  Specifically, I'd like y'all's thoughts on:

1. Myth as a Modfier?  In game terms, Myth is basically going to be treated like a modifer and added to certain rolls, so I'm having players keep track of it that way (+1, +2... +20).  However, functionally, they also have to roll over it on some occasions, so it sometimes functions just as a number.  Should I ditch the whole modifer business and have it just represented as a number?  This is not a big issue, but mostly aethetic and relates to accessibility and clarity.

2. Specific Fate vs. Fatal Flaw:  The example Fate I give for Heracles is "to destroy and be destroyed by those closest to you," which is pretty different from a Fatal Flaw like "Violent Rage."  What kind of difference will this make in gameplay, do you think?  Is there a reason I should choose one form over another?  The Flaw is certainly less specific than the Specific Fate.  Perhaps the character's understanding of their Fate could develop over time?

3.  Prophecy/Spin/Measure/Cut:  What do you think of this system for having the tone of the campaign switch to reflect different character's progress towards their Fate?  Are Spin, Meaure, and Cut evocative enough?  I chose them to reflect the Three Fates, but they don't really tell the players much about what "being Measured" or "being Spun" is supposed to feel like to a character.  Should I switch terms or just try to offer concrete descriptions of what I'm going for?

4.  Patronage System:  I based this mostly on Emily Care's insightful suggestions (thanks, Em!).  Does it sound workable?  How do I balance the benefits of being patronized by minor dieties (Muses, locus dei, titans, etc.) compared to having an Olympian patron?  Obviously, minor dieties would have less servants and more time for you, but how do I reflect that in game?

5. Any Other Issues You Want to Bring Up:  Those are just the things that I myself have concerns about.  If you see anything else in the design that bothers you or looks like it could be ever cooler, don't hesitate to wax poetical.  Thanks to your earlier suggestions, it's now twice as neat as it was before.

[Mike Holmes]

1. Myth as a Modfier?  In game terms, Myth is basically going to be treated like a modifer and added to certain rolls, so I'm having players keep track of it that way (+1, +2... +20).  However, functionally, they also have to roll over it on some occasions, so it sometimes functions just as a number.  Should I ditch the whole modifer business and have it just represented as a number?  This is not a big issue, but mostly aethetic and relates to accessibility and clarity.

Hmm. Sticky. What About both? Like 20/+20. Nah, that's probably worse.

BTW, have you seen Primeval? They have a mechanic that's a lot like your Myth mechanic.

2. Specific Fate vs. Fatal Flaw:  The example Fate I give for Heracles is "to destroy and be destroyed by those closest to you," which is pretty different from a Fatal Flaw like "Violent Rage."  What kind of difference will this make in gameplay, do you think?

How will this be used in the game (like a destiny SA?). What are you trying to get out of it. If it's a certain end, that is, the character can't likely escape it, then I'd say go for the Fate. If it's just meant to affect play along the way, I'd go with Flaw.

Is there a reason I should choose one form over another?  The Flaw is certainly less specific than the Specific Fate.  Perhaps the character's understanding of their Fate could develop over time?

Sure, do both. Have a mechanic where the player has to specify his fat more pointedly as his Flaw comes into play or something like that. When the Fate is perfectly defined, that's when it happens. Just an idea.

3.  Prophecy/Spin/Measure/Cut:  What do you think of this system for having the tone of the campaign switch to reflect different character's progress towards their Fate?  Are Spin, Meaure, and Cut evocative enough?  I chose them to reflect the Three Fates, but they don't really tell the players much about what "being Measured" or "being Spun" is supposed to feel like to a character.  Should I switch terms or just try to offer concrete descriptions of what I'm going for?

I think it's cool as is. Just explain them well, and link mechanics that evoke them. Maybe the character gets his Flaw as a result of being Spun. Then he gets his Fate as a result of being measured. Then he meets his Fate as a result of being Cut.

4.  Patronage System:  I based this mostly on Emily Care's insightful suggestions (thanks, Em!).  Does it sound workable?  How do I balance the benefits of being patronized by minor dieties (Muses, locus dei, titans, etc.) compared to having an Olympian patron?  Obviously, minor dieties would have less servants and more time for you, but how do I reflect that in game?

Have you seen the In Nomine rules for Invoking your superior? Basically it's a roll to see if they show up when you want them to. Pretty straightforward.

I'd also balance by having the lesser patrons be less of a burden on the character. If your patron is Zeus himself, then he's always got something for you to do in return. A lesser diety gives their lesser ability for less in return. Does that work?

5. Any Other Issues You Want to Bring Up:  Those are just the things that I myself have concerns about.  If you see anything else in the design that bothers you or looks like it could be ever cooler, don't hesitate to wax poetical.  Thanks to your earlier suggestions, it's now twice as neat as it was before.

You need a hubris characteristic. One that a player can add to for something like re-rolls, which drives him towards his Fate, and earns him the enmity of the gods. This would be altered by his relationship with the gods. Thus, do what Zeus says, and reduce hubris, and make his patronage stronger. Don't do what Zeus says, or make enough re-rolls (avoiding fate), and Hubris becomes an unstoppable force driving toward disaster.

Mike

[Sidhain]

I'd probably supplant the role( of Hero points with "Myth" score ir better yet an axis of Myth Vs Hubris) it does two things creates a non-limited resource--one which can be tested against/used without loss, but also can risk some suffering (for example a High Myth failure means the hero banked on his fame/myth and failed--obviously he was showing hubris at this time, so the Gods take note.)

[Piers]

1. Myth as a Modfier?  In game terms, Myth is basically going to be treated like a modifer and added to certain rolls, so I'm having players keep track of it that way (+1, +2... +20).  However, functionally, they also have to roll over it on some occasions, so it sometimes functions just as a number.  Should I ditch the whole modifer business and have it just represented as a number?  This is not a big issue, but mostly aethetic and relates to accessibility and clarity.

You know, I'd be tempted to conflate the Myth attribute with Mutants and Mastermind's Power Level, while decoupling power level from number of points used to build the character.  Thus Power Level/Myth goes up when the characters add to their mythic stature, and may well outpace or lag behind the rate of 15pts per level.  (Or maybe the players get a lump of points when they jump to the next level.)

At the same time, the increase in Myth level, while making them explicitly more powerful, runs them down the road to their fate, with specific way-stations along the path.  Thus, your suggested PL 5 start would be the level at which the characters get a hint as to their fate, and it becomes more defined either every level, or every other level (as they gain hero points).  I agree with Mike's analysis above, about the difference between Fate and Fatal Flaw.  I'd go with Fate myself (it is actually very like the Fate mechanism in the game I'm working on, but I'll tell everyone about that when I have time), but it really depends on your intent.

The advantage of this approach is that it conflates a mechanic of the system with your mechanism.  In view of which, I'd also suggest that you might want to reconsider the use of Hero and Villian points in the game in terms of Patrons.  If these become the explicit intervention of the Gods, then favour can be distributed in terms extra points, and antagonism in terms of Villian points to be used by the GameMaster.  Narrate them specifically as divine intervention and you're all done.

Actually, thinking about it, if you want to go down this road for the favour/patronage system, it might be even more appropriate to set down an unspecified number of Hero points for the heroes, depending on the god's favour.  Then the characters get to call for favour as often as they like, invoking a specific God or Goddess, never knowing when they have overstepped their welcome.  And if they do, the deity adds to the Villian pool instead.  Or, maybe make it something like this:

You need a hubris characteristic. One that a player can add to for something like re-rolls, which drives him towards his Fate, and earns him the enmity of the gods. This would be altered by his relationship with the gods. Thus, do what Zeus says, and reduce hubris, and make his patronage stronger. Don't do what Zeus says, or make enough re-rolls (avoiding fate), and Hubris becomes an unstoppable force driving toward disaster.

Hubris is good, and I must say, I like the way you are taking this.

Piers

[Jonathan Walton]

Sticky. What About both? Like 20/+20. Nah, that's probably worse.

What I've got right now is a place on the character sheet that says "Myth: +BOX" (with "BOX" being a box and not the word "BOX"), which kinda illustrates the effect of Myth being both a modifier and a value.  Haven't seen Primeval.  Is it somehting I can get my hands on easily?

BTW, have you seen Primeval? They have a mechanic that's a lot like your Myth mechanic.

Maybe the character gets his Flaw as a result of being Spun. Then he gets his Fate as a result of being measured. Then he meets his Fate as a result of being Cut.

Stolen.  And thanks.  I was thinking of something along those lines anyway.

Have you seen the In Nomine rules for Invoking your superior?

I was a hardcore In Nomine fanboy for a while.  So are you suggesting that maybe patronage could be a value that you could roll against, attempt to invoke your Patron's aid?  And maybe minor dieties would be easy to invoke, but wouldn't be able to help you much, while major dieties would be rather hard to invoke, but would offer serious help.  That leads to a prayer-like system where Heracles says "O Mighty Zeus!  Drive my blade straight into the breasts of my enemies!"  And characters could always add their Myth into any attempt to invoke the gods, risking their Fate.

You need a hubris characteristic.

How's this: I need a mechanic for getting rid of "X" anyway, and since that involves running away from your oncoming Fate, what if you can trade "X" for points of Hubris, and vice versa, at any time.  You gain Hubris by running away from your Fate and can loose Hubris by accepting your Fate.  Then Hubris becomes a negative modifier whenever you want to invoke the gods.  Since you are arrogantly avoiding the Fate the gods have given you, they decide to stop giving you their aid.  That way, like Sidhain said, both Myth and Hubris tie into Fate, but in very different ways.

You know, I'd be tempted to conflate the Myth attribute with Mutants and Mastermind's Power Level, while decoupling power level from number of points used to build the character. Thus Power Level/Myth goes up when the characters add to their mythic stature, and may well outpace or lag behind the rate of 15pts per level.

Hey, Piers!  Cool to hear from you again.

Can you explain more about why you want to "decouple" Myth/PL from Power Points?  My intent was for GMs to build Mythic Deeds for the characters using the same system, so you get 150 points to build a Myth 10 creature/adversary/labor for them to take on.  And then, once the characters overcame it, they would all go up a Myth level and gain another 10 points to invest, making their powers grow with their Myth.  Are there specific advantages in making them seperate?

Also, I wasn't intending for Argonauts characters to be able to gain Power Points in any other way.  Unlike superheroes, mythic heroes' power only grows through raising their Myth, and they can only raise their Myth by committing Mythic Deeds.  Are there issues here that I haven't considered fully?

In view of which, I'd also suggest that you might want to reconsider the use of Hero and Villian points in the game in terms of Patrons.

Ooooo.  I like.  Not quite sure how to implement it yet, but it's definitely a good idea.  Perhaps a successful invocation, instead of providing yet another modifier, could provide the hero with an allotment of hero points, depending on how successful the role was.  And, of course, really bad failures would lead to the GM getting more villain points to play with.  Definitely something worth thinking about.

[Piers]

Can you explain more about why you want to "decouple" Myth/PL from Power Points?  My intent was for GMs to build Mythic Deeds for the characters using the same system, so you get 150 points to build a Myth 10 creature/adversary/labor for them to take on.  And then, once the characters overcame it, they would all go up a Myth level and gain another 10 points to invest, making their powers grow with their Myth.  Are there specific advantages in making them seperateAlso, I wasn't intending for Argonauts characters to be able to gain Power Points in any other way.  Unlike superheroes, mythic heroes' power only grows through raising their Myth, and they can only raise their Myth by committing Mythic Deeds.  Are there issues here that I haven't considered fully??

Well, pulling the two apart creates a dichotomy between trained characters, and heroes.  One is good at a great many things, the other is much better at a few.  But, other than accomodating 'realistic' training or some such, nope.  Not that I can think of.  And this is the Forge, after all.  Realism, phooey.  You'll just need to be very careful about how and when the Myth score goes up.

In view of which, I'd also suggest that you might want to reconsider the use of Hero and Villian points in the game in terms of Patrons.

Ooooo.  I like.  Not quite sure how to implement it yet, but it's definitely a good idea.  Perhaps a successful invocation, instead of providing yet another modifier, could provide the hero with an allotment of hero points, depending on how successful the role was.  And, of course, really bad failures would lead to the GM getting more villain points to play with.  Definitely something worth thinking about.

Exactly.  Maybe you'd want to tie their base Hero points to a particular Patron, and when they need more, they can invoke that Patron or another God.  They make a Myth roll against a particular target number, and gain Hero Points based on their success.  Failure gives Villian points to the GameMaster.

Then, there are penalties for multiple invocations during a given session.  Which encourages characters to invoke someone else, which probably gets their Patron's back up.  Like this, perhaps:

Base Target Number 15
Gain 1 Hero Point plus an additional one for every five over the target.
Give the GM 1 Villian point for every 5  or part thereof under the target.
-5 cumulative, for second and susequent invocations of same God(dess) during the session.
-3 cumulative, for each invocation of different deity.

And characters could have Feats of the form: +3 to invoke Patron Deity, -3 to invoke Rival Deity.

That's a bit knobbly, but it should lead to a cycle where if you call on your Deity too much, they'll get annoyed with you, and where it may become better to switch to a new Deity, which will get the first Patron annoyed, etc.  But maybe the mechnic you have is better:

You need a hubris characteristic.

How's this: I need a mechanic for getting rid of "X" anyway, and since that involves running away from your oncoming Fate, what if you can trade "X" for points of Hubris, and vice versa, at any time.  You gain Hubris by running away from your Fate and can loose Hubris by accepting your Fate.  Then Hubris becomes a negative modifier whenever you want to invoke the gods.  Since you are arrogantly avoiding the Fate the gods have given you, they decide to stop giving you their aid.  That way, like Sidhain said, both Myth and Hubris tie into Fate, but in very different ways.

And, characters should probably get Hubris points for invoking the same God multiple times ("What, you again?  Haven't you had enough help?"), as well as for not invoking the Gods at the right time, until, "Okay, Ullyses, Poseidon's putting down 10 Villian points towards stopping you getting home. For the first one, we'll have a big storm...."

[Mike Holmes]

Haven't seen Primeval.  Is it somehting I can get my hands on easily?

Almost impossible. Contact Unheilig at RPG.net if you're brave. Mention my name and it'll either help, or get epithet's thrown at you. Tom, you reading this???

So are you suggesting that maybe patronage could be a value that you could roll against, attempt to invoke your Patron's aid?  

Yeah, you got the idea.

That way, like Sidhain said, both Myth and Hubris tie into Fate, but in very different ways.

Sounds sweet. Yer on a roll.

Mike

[Jonathan Walton]

Base Target Number 15
Gain 1 Hero Point plus an additional one for every five over the target.
Give the GM 1 Villian point for every 5  or part thereof under the target.
-5 cumulative, for second and susequent invocations of same God(dess) during the session.
-3 cumulative, for each invocation of different deity.

Hmm.  The only problem I see with this system is that players, after a certain point, will stop calling on the gods altogether, as long as invoking the gods is optional.  They'll figure out the likelihood of getting Hero Points, and if it doesn't seem like they have a chance, they won't go for it.  Hero Points aren't SO good that they're worth risking a lot for.  So, it'll be unlikely that Poseidon will ever rack up enough Villian points to strand Ulysses for 10 years.

Here's a new idea that I've been thinking about:

1. Any time during the session, the GM or Players can try to gain the attention of the gods.  This is done through an invocation.  Characters gain a Charisma bonus, if they are actually speaking the invocation aloud, and an additional bonus for invocing your patron.  There's a minor penalty for non-patrons.  You probably don't want to invoke your Patron's rival gods, but the GM might.  Just like in In Nomine, you can do certain things to make it more likely that the gods will pay attention.  Being in a temple is a plus, or doing something within their sphere (having just won an archery contest and invocing Apollo, for example).  Invocations do nothing accept gain the gods attention.  Invoced gods are considered to be "Attentive" for the remainder of the session (unless you make them go away).

2. Gods have spheres of influence.  Apollo's is Archery, Music, and Prophecy.  If Apollo is currently "Attentive," any time you attempt something that involves one of the elements of his sphere (shooting someone, playing the lute, going to Delphi), you have to roll to see if he intervenes.  There are plenty of modifiers here.  Bonused for Patrons, big penalties for Rivals, but mostly GM fiat.  If you're doing something the god would like, you get bonuses.  If not, penalties.

3.  Success on the roll gives you Hero Points (a mark of the god's favor).  Failure gives the GM Villain Points.  So if Ulysses is about to begin a long sea journey, most likely he's going to fail the Divine Intervention roll(Poseidon is his Rival, he's currently on the Ocean, the god is really pissed at him, etc.), giving the GM plenty of Villain points to throw around.   Failure, under certain conditions, could make a god go back to being Unattentive, meaning you'd have to invoke them again (with penalties).

4.  This way, the GM could try to invoke gods during play, depending on what the characters were doing.  Also, the characters could call on the blessings of various gods.  I'd probably have to change what exactly Hero/Villain points can do, and encourage the "Inspired Editing" (basically Author/Director Stance) that M&M mentions on p.106.  

EX.  Paris is about to shoot an arrow at Achilles.  He invokes Apollo's aid in the matter, and rolls high enought to make Apollo become "Attentive."  Next, he lets fly his arrow.  Now, Apollo's sphere means he has something to say about this archery business and Paris has plenty of bonuses (he just invoked Apollo, Apollo is a Patron of the Trojans, Paris' is a beautiful male youth and fits Apollo's archetype, Apollo would really like to see Achilles taken down, etc.).  So Paris rolls pretty high and gains 2 Hero Points towards the action.  He spends a single one to give a bonus to his Archery skill, and spends another to say that, if his aim is true, the arrow will hit Achilles heel.  Additionally, since he already gained the god's aid for this particular task, additional modifiers will make it hard for Paris to earn more of Apollo's favor with Archery, at least for the rest of this session.  Unless, of course, Paris is shooting someone else that Apollo really hates.

Sound workable?

[Mike Holmes]

Sound workable?

Very. What else you got? When's it available to playtest?

Mike

[Jonathan Walton]

Sound workable?

Very. What else you got? When's it available to playtest?

Ideally, I'll have a playtest version in the next week or so.  Need to come up with basic Mythic Character/Monster/Deed creation rules, which will be used both to create the PCs and to create the things that they try to kill/overcome (one system for everything, yea!).

Again, ideally, I'd like to have example Characters/Monsters/Deeds for each Myth Level ("besting the Cretian Labyrinth is a level 8 Mythic Deed, add +3 if the Labyrinth includes a suitably formidible Minotaur"), complete with stats and advice on how to run them.  Kind of a mini "Myth Manual."  But that's not really required for a playtest version.  Just a few examples should be enough.

My only weakness is that I've never actually played or run any d20 stuff, so it'll be ciritcal for me to get some good playtesting in myself as well as listening to other people's experiences.  Then again, I did play Palladium games for years, which is a similar system in many ways, so hopefully it won't be too alien.

I'll keep you informed.  This has been a priority ever since the Forge's birthday party, where I wished R. Sean Borgstrom would write a game on the Trojan War.  But if you want something done... :)

[Jonathan Walton]

Replying to myself again... sigh.

I finally finished the first page of the character sheet (so far, the second page is only going to be Super Powers and Gear).  Since it has most of the new mechanics on it, I thought I'd throw it up here.  All of the text is saved as vectors, so it looks 200% better if you actually print it out.  Thoughts on layout, clarity, readability, etc. are welcome.

http://www.godmachine.org/Argonauts-M&M.pdf

Assuming that Green Ronin approves my use of the M&M Superlink, I should have a free playtest version out in a week or so.

[John Harper]

I'm really digging this game, Jonathan. The character sheet looks very nice, too. It's clear, easy-to-read, and the pseudo-greek font kicks ass.

I have a question for you about pace. Let's say I start out with a Myth 1 character. I then need another 19 mythic deeds before I face my doom and (maybe) die. How long in real-world time should this cycle take, from beginning to end? Are you thinking there will be a mythic deed done every session? That's about 20 sessions for the whole arc of the character (not accounting for X's coming and going through the process), which, at 1 game session a week, is roughly 5 months of play. That's pretty much as fast as I can imagine it getting done.

I don't know if I have point, after all. I'm just musing about how real-life time relates to the built-in storyline of an Argonauts character. Did you have anything specific in mind about how long the cycle would take to play? It's easy enough for each play group to tweak this factor to taste (by managing how common the mythic events come up) but maybe it's worth saying a few words about it in the full text.

[Jonathan Walton]

Thanks for the comments, John.

As far as speed-of-play goes, I imagine that characters will be constantly attempting Mythic Deeds.  This doesn't mean that ever session has to be completely filled up with the attempt, but that the attempt will probably be the focal pooint of every session.  The rest, interacting with family members and lovers, travel, being hosted by the kings of foreign lands, drinking with your comrades, etc. still happens, but it's not the focus of play.  Real heroes, after all, live for Doing Great Deeds.

Some deeds, of course, could be multi-part and take several sessions, like the quest for the Golden Fleece.  Some, like the Trials of Hercules or the Odyessy could really be broken up into several seperate Mythic Deeds (the Nemean Lion, the Hydra, the Stables of Whats-his-name, Cerberus, etc.).  But there should probably be a suggested maximum speed of one Mythic Deed per charcater per session.   And GMs will be encouraged to make bigger Deeds for all the characters to accomplish together.

However, I don't think this'll mean 20-30 sessions to reach their ultimate Doom.  Since the damage system is based on Fate, I imagine characaters will reach their Doom at various speeds, depending on the GM and the amount of risk they enjoy.  If you want to have characters that embody the "live fast, die young" philosophy, it's certainly easy to have a micro-tragedy in only a few sessions (3-5).  In that case, though, I'd probably let the players keep raising their Myth as fast as they wanted.  However, if you want to give the characters time to die dramatically, or to try to escape their Fate, that's possible too.  You just drag things out and give the characters time to build up a ton of Hubris.  Finally, the wrath of the gods should be enough to strike them down.

So, to try to answer your question, I don't know that there's a specific speed that I'm aiming for.  Actually, once we start playtesting, one of the things I'm going to be looking for is suggestions for how groups can pace things.  For instance, if the players thinks the tragedy is happening too fast, what should they do?  Likewise, if things are dragging and the characters don't seem to worry about their Fate, how can they speed things up?  I'm definitely going to press the point that the GM shouldn't be the one who decides when tragedy strikes.  The GM just builds potential Deeds and lets the players decide what to do with them.  S/he's an equal participant in the tragedy, not the arbiter of Fate.

How's that sound?

[John Harper]

Ah... I had forgotten about damage being tied to Fate. That clinches it, in my opinion. In fact, that was one of my favorite things when I first read the idea -- strange that I would forget all about it a day later. Anyway, I think that will address the pace issue very well. The GM can manage the frequency of mythic accomplishment (i.e. Power Level growth) and the player's choices will affect how much suffering they have to endure (pushing them closer to their Fate). Very nice.

And did I tell you how much I love the idea that characters can start at any Myth level? No? I love it this much.

Also, I can't wait to playtest this. My group has been itching for an ancient Greece/hero thing for a while now. We did something with it in Universalis, and they're just going to eat Argonauts up.

[Jonathan Walton]

And did I tell you how much I love the idea that characters can start at any Myth level? No? I love it this much.

Wow, bold.  That's a lot of love there :)

Actually, I meant to mention Myth levels above and didn't.  If you don't have the time to invest in a long campaign but don't want to have characters (in the words of Boston) "living to die," you can always just start out at a higher Myth level.  Maybe even high enough to have your Flaw and/or Fate already determined.  That way, the hero already starts out with a black cloud over them.

Playing a Myth 0-5 Heracles would be very different from a Myth 6-10 one, or a Myth 11-15 one.  Sure, a Myth 12 Herc (havinug finished his Trials) would have a +12 modifier to throw around at will, but anytime he used it (to slaughter an entire army single-handedly, for example), he'd have a 3/5 chance of moving closer to his Doom.  And he wouldn't have very far to go... >;)