Alternate Melee Mechanics for BW

[Luke]

neb,
i've got to disagree. you did one combat where you got your ass kicked because you didn't know what you were doing. It had little to do with numbers. You were out-scripted. And this was largely because you chose to make a slow, lumbering bruiser with very low Reflexes. AND because you happened to be the victim of a concerted aftack from 4 Orc spearmen. I think these factors had as much to do with your character's performance as the superficial wound DN penalty.

I'll be interested to see what you think of these new variants. Because in this system, wounds are more of an after thought. You can be captured or run off without taking any wounds at all.

-L

[rafial]

I think these factors had as much to do with your character's performance as the superficial wound DN penalty.

I know nothing about the particular combat referred to, but I find it interesting that the issue of DN penalties for superficial and light wounds have been brought up.  I'm still trying to get my head around the BW combat system, and I find it interesting that at least for a statistical standpoint, the +1DN for a superficial wound is more severe, and the +2DN for a light wound is significantly more severe in most cases than the -1D from a medium wound.

Of course the main penalty from a medium wound appears to be the chance of a failed Steel test causing the character to hesitate and be open to an unopposed strike...

Which leads to the following question.  If you accumulate 3 superficial wounds, when you get the third one and go from a +2DN penalty to a -1D penalty, do you make a Steel test at that point?  Or is Steel test only if you take a -1D penalty all in one blow?

[Luke]

Which leads to the following question. If you accumulate 3 superficial wounds, when you get the third one and go from a +2DN penalty to a -1D penalty, do you make a Steel test at that point? Or is Steel test only if you take a -1D penalty all in one blow?

Fear, adrenaline and shock all kick in the moment your character loses -1D, whether it be from one midi, three superficials, two lights, a light and a superficial or what ever! This moment is when the real adrenaline kicks in and it is time to decide fight or flight. Unfortunately, one never knows how one will react to such fear and pain.  

-L

[nebulous menace]

One of the things I hadn't really realized - and I'm not sure I consider it a feature:

You deliberately created a combat system that requires players to learn it in detail and use those details to their advantage. The combat system is a separate wargame in the middle of the roleplaying experience. Something on the level of Squad Leader.

I've been playing it like every other combat system in every other game out there: I am not the combat expert. My character is. I say, "go over to that guy and hit him. " And it happens. Not in BW. . .

While there is a difference between "standing your ground while parrying" and "moving a step back while parrying"- and a combat expert should know to do the latter- I'm not sure it's a difference that the player should be keeping track of.

I'm glad you're working up an alternative combat system for people who don't want the microfine details.

[Luke]

Did some playtesting of the Simplified Melee rules.

Used the Bloody Clash mechanic, 4-LP characters.

• Spider vs Orc.

Orc wounded badly, injected with poison and driven off.

• Troll Ironshield, Spider Hunter-Seeker, Wolf Black Destroyer, and Orc Black Hunter vs Elven Prince (4-LP but with Cloak, Mail and Sword.)

Elven prince killed HORRIBLY.

• Troll and Spider vs Wolf and Prince.

Wolf and Prince killed horribly (one incidental, mark and superb hit for each of them).

Tons of advantage dice tossed back and forth in all clashes.

What we found was that choosing the leader for the exchange was crucial. A leader with diverse skills--a lot FoRKs--is utterly necessary. FoRKs can't be knocked off with the Lowest Common Denominator or with Knocked Aside rules.

Spider and Troll traits make for sick Advantages.
Certain advantages trigger other advantages (P1: "I want to use my Stealthy as an advantage. P2: "Since he is using Stealthy, I call on my Keen Sight trait.") Which is how it should be.

The longest process was anteing up advantages, which only took a few minutes. After that the combat was over shockingly quickly. I highly recommend the Brutal Fight aftermath rules. Wild Fight is fun, Ugly fight is so-so (but very very quick to resolve).

Using Bloody Clash these rules were no less nasty than typical BW combat. Admittedly, all of the thinking aspect of BW combat is eliminated and a lot of the dramatic details with it. But all of the players blanched at how quickly the opposition wilted, and could definitely see many uses for such rules.

-L

[rafial]

You deliberately created a combat system that requires players to learn it in detail and use those details to their advantage. The combat system is a separate wargame in the middle of the roleplaying experience.

Other games with similar "gamist challenge" combat systems include Riddle of Steel, or Jolly Roger's Swashbuckler.  There was even an RPG built around the Lost World fighting books at one point.

Just as some players want the results of their verbal cleverness to reflect on in-character outcomes of social situations, and would be upset if it was all "reduced to a die roll," there are other folk who want the results of their tactical cleverness to have an in-character effect on combat.  So in those cases, the BW combat system would be a feature.

That said, having a quick and dirty option for those who are not interested in the tactical challenge, or for those times when one simply doesn't feel like going for the blow by blow is a great idea.

[epweissengruber]

where are these mechanics currently posted ... I cannot find them

[Luke]

where are these mechanics currently posted ... I cannot find them

Ep,

1) This thread is three years old.

2) The mechanics are in Burning Wheel Revised.

[epweissengruber]

Have found them.

Thnx