armor question

[Morfedel]

Well, and that's the thing. A guy in heavy enough armor, and with a high enough toughness, can be incredibly hard to harm; but by the same token, unless the armored guy has a HIGH dice pool, the dice penalty for full harness and shield will hvae difficulty landing any blows at all against a comparitively skilled fighter without any armor.

And my question is: is this by design? Is this historical and realistic? and if so, how do two fighters in this situation end it without incredible luck or just falling down from exhaustion (which will happen to the Harnessed fighter first, of course).

[Darren Hill]

And he needs to win to counter-attack.

Negative, Ghost-rider.

He needs to win an exchange to attack *first*. A large difference. Now, if armored guy is also packing a shield, it is perfectly viable option to opt not to defend, then use simo. block and strike as his attack.

Ah yes, that might work.
I think this also comes back to the ST/TO variation that baseline TROS allows: with limited variation in these traits, plate armour without a shield can be relied on to stop even high dice attacks.

[Lance D. Allen]

Ah yes, that might work.

Not might. Does. ...sometimes. It's when it doesn't that you wish you hadn't have done what you did. But such is the risk you take when you get into a fight with pointy steel objects.

[Jake Norwood]

Well, and that's the thing. A guy in heavy enough armor, and with a high enough toughness, can be incredibly hard to harm; but by the same token, unless the armored guy has a HIGH dice pool, the dice penalty for full harness and shield will hvae difficulty landing any blows at all against a comparitively skilled fighter without any armor.

And my question is: is this by design? Is this historical and realistic? and if so, how do two fighters in this situation end it without incredible luck or just falling down from exhaustion (which will happen to the Harnessed fighter first, of course).

The disadvantages caused by armor exist, but they're extraordinarily difficult to conveniently model in a game. As I've said before, I'd lower most of the CP penaltiles some, though I like fatigue where it is. How much, you say? I dunno...1 CP-ish...

Jake

[Morfedel]

I think I like the "Armor is transparent and people can point and laugh at your privates" disadvantage myself. Its more amusing, and leads to some wild speculations in social circles.

Sorry, i'm having my caffeine really late in the day. Its a crime, i tell ya. :)

[tauman]

Well, and that's the thing. A guy in heavy enough armor, and with a high enough toughness, can be incredibly hard to harm; but by the same token, unless the armored guy has a HIGH dice pool, the dice penalty for full harness and shield will hvae difficulty landing any blows at all against a comparitively skilled fighter without any armor.

And my question is: is this by design? Is this historical and realistic? and if so, how do two fighters in this situation end it without incredible luck or just falling down from exhaustion (which will happen to the Harnessed fighter first, of course).

The disadvantages caused by armor exist, but they're extraordinarily difficult to conveniently model in a game. As I've said before, I'd lower most of the CP penaltiles some, though I like fatigue where it is. How much, you say? I dunno...1 CP-ish...

Jake

Being a WMA practitioner, I'm really interested in what sort of effects it has (I concentrate on Rapier, Italian Duelling Sabre, & Bolognese Cut & Thrust--so I've never had the opportunity to try sparring in armor).

So, hypothetically, what sorts of penalties would you apply? By this, I don't mean in exact mechanics, but general descriptions (although I assume it would be different for different types of armor as Mail has a different weight distribution than Plate, for example).

Steve Reich

[Jake Norwood]

ach, you got me. I haven't spent enough time in well-made harness to really say. The helmet is the worst of it, though, cutting off vision, hearing, and air.

Jake

[Salamander]

ach, you got me. I haven't spent enough time in well-made harness to really say. The helmet is the worst of it, though, cutting off vision, hearing, and air.

Jake

Yeah, I know, that is going to part of the fun when I finally get a chance to try Harnischefechten. Just gotta save, save, save!!!

After I get the harness (long time to go yet, the suit I want costs US$6,200.00) and have had a chance to train in it, I can get back to you... Mybe hit up the guys at places like the Royal Armouries, or even a few of the guys at the end of june at the ARMA meet?

[Darren Hill]

One thing that could perhaps be handled better for armour is fatigue. As it stands, very heavily armoured fighters tire just as quickly as naked people.
I don't think the solution is to give an EN penalty for armour, because that could lead to people tiring too quickly.

[Jake Norwood]

Is that so? They roll twice as often...

Jake

[Darren Hill]

Is that so? They roll twice as often...

They do? Can you elaborate - I must have missed that.

[Crusader]

First of all...

Fine game, Jake.  Really.  I just got my copy last week and am blown away.  It really breathes new life into the fantasy genre.  It is nice indeed to see that someone cares enough to construct a set of rules with an eye toward accuracy and realism.  Great work.  I actually started gaming again just because of this game.

Now...

I have had a deep interest in the traditional Medieval Western Martial Arts for years, and no aspect of them fascinates me more than Armoured Combat.  I spent a small fortune on my newest harness, photos of which can be seen here:

http://justus.pair.com/DiscussionPhotos/Josh/PANA0041.jpg

http://justus.pair.com/DiscussionPhotos/Josh/PANA0045.jpg

...and so on.  These were taken during a fitting at the armourer's shop.  Sorry the arm harness and headgear didn't make it into the pictures.

In any case (while I hate to criticise this excellent game...), I have to side with the folks who insist that some of the armour penalties are a bit high.  Speaking as a person who has spent a very great deal of time in many harnesses, of both good and ill fit, I'd have to say that the difference between armour that is bought "off-the-peg" and custom-made harness is indescribably tremendous.  If any of you ever have the opportunity to commission your own harness, tailored to your own body's exact measurements by an armourer who is intimately familiar with historical pieces and techniques, do so.  The admittedly somewhat alarming price is worth every penny if you're seriously into the hobby.

I've worn crappy, excessively-heavy SCA armour whose speculative CP penalties I would estimate as being near the -4 CP penalty that a full plate harness with helm saddles you with in the game.  But armour made for SCA sport use is well-known to be far heavier than historical examples, and is almost always bought ready-made, "off-the-peg", with pieces perhaps being available in a few standard sizes.  A real historical reproduction or speculative reconstruction of real medieval harness is a joy to wear...as long as the weather's not too hot.  

While I think some of the CP penalties are too high, I think Jake is dead on with the endurance penalties.  After a few solid minutes of hard fighting without a breather, I can tire pretty rapidly, even indoors or in cool weather.  No matter how many breaths the visor has, a closed helm still restricts your oxygen intake to some degree.  There are, if i'm not mistaken, a handful of records of men who died in battles here and there as a result of raising their visors for a breath at the wrong time.

[Salamander]

I have had a deep interest in the traditional Medieval Western Martial Arts for years, and no aspect of them fascinates me more than Armoured Combat.  I spent a small fortune on my newest harness, photos of which can be seen here:

http://justus.pair.com/DiscussionPhotos/Josh/PANA0041.jpg

http://justus.pair.com/DiscussionPhotos/Josh/PANA0045.jpg

...and so on.  These were taken during a fitting at the armourer's shop.  Sorry the arm harness and headgear didn't make it into the pictures.

Link's busted...

In any case (while I hate to criticise this excellent game...), I have to side with the folks who insist that some of the armour penalties are a bit high.  Speaking as a person who has spent a very great deal of time in many harnesses, of both good and ill fit, I'd have to say that the difference between armour that is bought "off-the-peg" and custom-made harness is indescribably tremendous.  If any of you ever have the opportunity to commission your own harness, tailored to your own body's exact measurements by an armourer who is intimately familiar with historical pieces and techniques, do so.  The admittedly somewhat alarming price is worth every penny if you're seriously into the hobby.

Yeah, I am planning on spending a regular sized fortune on mine...

I've worn crappy, excessively-heavy SCA armour whose speculative CP penalties I would estimate as being near the -4 CP penalty that a full plate harness with helm saddles you with in the game.  But armour made for SCA sport use is well-known to be far heavier than historical examples, and is almost always bought ready-made, "off-the-peg", with pieces perhaps being available in a few standard sizes.  A real historical reproduction or speculative reconstruction of real medieval harness is a joy to wear...as long as the weather's not too hot.  

Jake has mentioned something about reducing the CP penalties if he had the choice. Perhaps in Flos Duelatorum?

While I think some of the CP penalties are too high, I think Jake is dead on with the endurance penalties.  After a few solid minutes of hard fighting without a breather, I can tire pretty rapidly, even indoors or in cool weather.  No matter how many breaths the visor has, a closed helm still restricts your oxygen intake to some degree.  There are, if i'm not mistaken, a handful of records of men who died in battles here and there as a result of raising their visors for a breath at the wrong time.

Well, waddya know... I hadn't thought about the breathing part, maybe that's where we get the term, "taking a breather"?

[Lance D. Allen]

Oh, I can attest to how hard it is to breath in a closed-face helm. My first helm was a pig-faced bascinet, very authentically designed (though probably insanely heavier than historically) which was meant for live-steel use, in the sport sense that the SCA has, except that the SCA does not use live-steel. Not only was it immensely heavy, but I was only able to see about 2-3 feet of my opponent at optimum range, and it was incredibly hard to breathe in. All the same, I'd probably give it a AV of 7 or 8.. I really doubt anyone would be capable of splitting my skull in it.. my neck would sooner break.

[buddha]

demiurgeastaroth,
In answer to your fatigue question...

I'm not absolutely certain, but I think that those in heavy armor take fatigue after every number of rounds equal to their endurance, while those unarmored take fatigue after EN x 2 rounds.

Buddha