Taveruun Overview Thread

[Nick the Nevermet]

ok...

Well, to answer your question, Mike, yes, this does clarify things.

Oh, yeah... heh heh... not that we NEED more reasons to have Otamarluk counter-crusading, but I found one in the book earlier today:  The Prophet of the Seven Vows was given Xanar's Shard as well as the wisdom of the Seven Vows from an angel sent by The Three.  While that is interesting, the real relevant point is that he did this in circa 100 WEYR on the shore of the Sea of Fallen Gods.  Now, Otamarluk does't have a border anywhere near that sea.  I'm guessing that fact is part of the rhetoric somewhere. 'they wanted the shard, now we want the cave where the angel spoke!' or somesuch


Other reactions I had to what you said, Mike:

1) I agree with Gary & everyone else about the timeline & the fact I originally didn't give Otamarluk enough historical presence.  I'll fix that; I'll have a new outline up sometime tonight.

2) Flowing out of the first, I'll be revising Komas in the North a little bit.

[Morfedel]

And this is my point: I don't think its semantic, because there was a specific note made to point this out about the economy. I am one of those that believes that when someone makes a specific point to, well, point something out, there is a reason for it.

But as we have generally seen that I am the minority in my viewpoints, thats fine. As I have just said on the other thread, since my viewpoint is apparently too divergent from everyone elses, and as I do not want to be a source of strife, I'll withdraw from the project and let you find someone else who will work more harmoniously with the rest of you.

[Jake Norwood]

What? Stay on, man. If there are three people in a room and they all agree, then you don't need two of them.

Jake

[Gary_Bingham]

As we have been heavy in discussion and light in content over the last couple of days, I thought that I would redress the balance by posting on the crusades in a little more detail than we have seen in the rulebook. This period of history is especially important to the region and I feel that any netbook or supplement would be incomplete without such a history.

Whilst I will need to edit the text below when I get back within reach of a rulebook I thought that it would do no harm to let you guys take a look at it. It also forms a background for the counties we have detailed so far, as wel as dropping seeds for a couple of others as well. As usual I am completely willing to change any or all of the detail to match with your individual visions.

Anyways let me know what you think.

Political History of Taveruun

The First Crusade
Taveruun has been a amalgam of independent and semi-independent states since it’s inception during the first Crusade for the Shard in W1000. Dardanet was assailed by a Marmaluk army during the summer of W997 and was almost overrun. The Ruler of Dardanet made a plee for military assistance to Xanarium, and in W999 a crusade against the Followers of the Prophet was declared. The call was answered by Cyrinthmeir and Helena, however The Seat of the Xanarian Empire sent the largest contingent made up from the Imperial legions and a large number of nobles seeking gold and glory.    

The Cyrinthmeirian army was the first to claim victories against the Vowist forces in the north, striking across the mountainous northern border to take the three major cities of the Komas region. The Duchy of Komas was formed and recognized by the Emperor as a vassal province of the Xanarian Empire. The important and imposing port city of Dar-Es-Kallyrii was the next to fall to the crusaders, the combined armies of Xanarium and Helena besieged the city for 18 months before it finally fell and this delay is often cited as the reason for the failure of the first crusade. When the Xanarian general declared the Kingdom of Kallary for the Seat of the Xanarian Empire, the Hellenic contingent struck out north into the gold and silver rich mountainous region to claim their spoils.

The Second Crusade
Dardanet was again the spark, which brought Holy fire to the Land of the Taveruu. When Dardanet expanded their border to encompass the coastline south of the Kingdom of Kallary, The emperor was furious with the Dardani for breaking the agreement made during the First Crusade, and called for another crusade against the Vowists. The crusaders conveniently for the Emperor landed south of Kallary and headed inland. Dardanet quickly fell back to it’s original borders and allowed the massive army to pass along the northern frontier. Weakened by the ravages of the first crusade the armies of the Followers of the Prophet where easily overrun and the second crusade pushed the imperial borders all the way to the ancient port city of Illitzi on the Bay of Saphire. The County of Illitzi was formed in the final throes of the Second Crusade. It is notable that the knight Arlyman Beggarman made his name during the storming of the port city and was known as the Hero of Illitzi after that day.

The Third and Fourth Crusade
The spurred by the success of the second crusade, two more crusader armies surged across the Taveruu first from the Duchy of Komas in the North and then from the County of Illitzi in the South. The story goes that the Emperor intended a single Crusade combining the forces in a similar manner to the First crusade. However the Cyrinthmeirian faction mobilized long before the Xanarium army could make it’s way to Illitzi, and surged southward alone. The Suul’taan of Otarmaluk had assembled a large army to meet the threat and the third crusade proved disastrous and ended with the remnants of the Cyrinthmeir army besieged in the Vowist fortress on the hill which would later become the capital of Taveruun. The mainly Xanarian fourth crusade came to the rescue of Castle Longstone and drove the Suul’taan armies all the way back to the Galadonian River. The Baronry of Galadon was claimed for the Empire.

Later Crusades
After a lull as the Empire recovered from the toll of the first four incursions, a number of further crusades were called to retrieve the Shard for the Church of the Three-In-One, which at that time was thought to be held in the Fortress of the Seven Djinns in central Otamarluk. History brands these crusades as failures as neither territory nor the Shard was claimed for the Empire. But many riches were won in the deserts beyond the Galadonian river, and it’s was only when Helena and Dardanet ceded from the Empire that the crusades ceased. During the period of the later crusades the Empire imposed a more rigid structure on the crusaders states, forming the compass counties and installing the heads of the crusader states as Highlords and a Imperial governor as Overlord. The state of Taveruun was thus formed, and though the crusader states were to re-emerge after the Imperial Overlord departed the country remained united.

Gary

[Morfedel]

What? Stay on, man. If there are three people in a room and they all agree, then you don't need two of them.

Jake

That's true. I just didn't want to be responsible for arguments.

Ok then. I'm in. I'll post my province by the weekend; I want to give it some deep thought.

[Nick the Nevermet]

That's pretty cool, Gary.  As you wanted comments, you'll get some:

1) Sometiems it is a bit silly to debate which analogy is better, but it is the best way I can think of to describe a point of contention here:  is Taveruun the Promised Land or the Balkans?  This is less of a 'what fits the letter of the book' than 'what fits the spirit of the world we want.'  I've admitted a lacking in my knowledge of history, so I've shied away from using either of these analogies.  Nevertheless, both would be effective places to build from, but each would have very different ideas on what the ruling class is like, the kind of support the population gives The Church, etc.  How we pick and choose between these anologies to give us guidance is important.

2) I doubt it is a controversial comment to suggest that some important things happened before 997W.  This is not really a criticism of your work, as you had a specific goal of explaining how the crusades created the current political state of Taveruun.  It is only a suggestion of something else that needs to be done, even if its effects aren't as direct as the Crusades.

I'm sure I'll have more, but these are the two comments I have right now

[Mike Holmes]

Taveruun is Taveruun. To the extent that it is geographically and politically similar to the Balkans I'll make comparisons. But there's no reason it has to take on all the characteristics of that region or any other RL region.

In working up a timeline, see if we can salvage any of the stuff that you had prior to this revision (file off serial numbers; change names).

On the subject of using Arabic, we might want to consider not doing that. Looking at the map, it's not Alcazar ibn Djinn (that's my poor attempt at translating "the Fortress of the Djinn"). The names are in English. Perhaps we ought to stick with that. Dar-es means Haven of (or "that is"?), so it could just be Haven of Kallyrii, for example. Even if we do use the "Marluk" language, it could be different than Arabic. Pros? Cons?

I don't think that there are deserts in Ottamarluk, Gary. IIRC, it's mostly steppes and swamps. But check it first. Or are you referring to the parts near T'Zaaul?

Also, isn't the Counter-Crusade in response to a somewhat recent crusade? Because it seems from the crusade notes that Taveruun began after the crusades stopped. Meaning that there wouldn't have been any crusades for quite a while. Or am I missing something? I think I might just be confused.

Mike

[Gary_Bingham]

In working up a timeline, see if we can salvage any of the stuff that you had prior to this revision (file off serial numbers; change names).

Absolutely. BTW I have focussed particularly on the Age of Crusades in the history above. It was not my intention to suggest that nothing important happened prior to W1000 or more recently.

On the subject of using Arabic, we might want to consider not doing that. Looking at the map, it's not Alcazar ibn Djinn (that's my poor attempt at translating "the Fortress of the Djinn"). The names are in English. Perhaps we ought to stick with that. Dar-es means Haven of (or "that is"?), so it could just be Haven of Kallyrii, for example. Even if we do use the "Marluk" language, it could be different than Arabic. Pros? Cons?

The "Followers of the Prophet as Muslims" and "Otamarluk as Arab" parallels are implied in the rulebook, and as long as we do not abuse the stereotype I feel that the arabic language is a useful tool for setting a theme for the Marmaluk culture.

We need to tread carefully though and take a balance approach to both motivations and beliefs of the Taveruu and Marmaluk peoples so as to give offense to followers of RL faiths.

Also we need to keep in our minds that Weyrth is Weyrth.

If the concessus is towards a strict use of English I will of course comply and rewrite the history.

I don't think that there are deserts in Ottamarluk, Gary. IIRC, it's mostly steppes and swamps. But check it first. Or are you referring to the parts near T'Zaaul?

Ah! the dangers of using stereotypes :) I was caught up in the crusaders in the desert RL theme. I will review the rulebook and rewrite.

Also, isn't the Counter-Crusade in response to a somewhat recent crusade? Because it seems from the crusade notes that Taveruun began after the crusades stopped. Meaning that there wouldn't have been any crusades for quite a while. Or am I missing something? I think I might just be confused.

I will review the rule book on this point also.
Gary

[Mike Holmes]

I agree with your parallels completely. The question is how closely do we want to stick to the real world details when it comes to something like language. I mean if we use Arabic then one might assume that it is also the language of their holy text. We wouldn't want to use the Koran, however, as it's history would conflict with the history of Wyerth. So there are subtle implications about details as small as using a RW language.

Jake, any comments from the linguist?

Anyhow, I'm not dead against using the language. The problem becomes that if you use anything other than English, that we're going to have to maintain consistency in it's use. That means that, unless it's fine to switch back and forth, that in naming places we'll have to learn enough Arabic to do it right. Even if we were to use a Faux Arabic (like was my original intent; something I now think might be problematic), then we'd have to at least get the basics straight so that we don't mess up the presentation.

Further, if we use some language to name Ottamarluk places, shouldn't we for consistency name Taveruun places in their language? Or can we assume that they always use names and don't use "the" and "of" etc, in placenames?


Looking foreward to the expanded timeline. I really like the idea of Kallary. Can you outline where it might have been on the map a bit? Just so we know where we can put stuff like Kallary ruins and the like.

BTW, the Ottamarluks being parallel to the Turks would put them in a place like Turkey, or central asia. I think that Jake went with a more early Seljuk Turk presentation of their homeland as somewhat more central asian in character (which, in fact, would make Taveruun more like Turkey). Anyhow, that's the image I get when I read his description of that country's geography. OTOH, that would include arid lands as well, and as a large country there are almost certainly desert regions somewhere in it.

Mike

[Jake Norwood]

I see Otamarluk as very turkish/crimean, with a heavy arab influence in the east.

Language-wise, I'm all for incorporating realistic language elements in trying to communicate or express something in creating maps and places. Almost all the names of the weyrth nations are derived from the languages of the people that that nation imitates.

So go with turkish, with an arabic modification in the east. Also, consistency in spelling is a moot point with dialectical differences and also with the fact that spelling just historically wasn't very consistent, even in Latin.

Jake

[Mike Holmes]

So go with turkish, with an arabic modification in the east. Also, consistency in spelling is a moot point with dialectical differences and also with the fact that spelling just historically wasn't very consistent, even in Latin.

Hmm. Good point. I'm convinced. Anyone else have any objections?

Mike "glad his province isn't adjacent to Ottamarluk as he knows no Turkish" Holmes

[Gary_Bingham]

So go with turkish, with an arabic modification in the east. Also, consistency in spelling is a moot point with dialectical differences and also with the fact that spelling just historically wasn't very consistent, even in Latin.

Hmm. Good point. I'm convinced. Anyone else have any objections?

Mike "glad his province isn't adjacent to Ottamarluk as he knows no Turkish" Holmes

Mike I don't think that you are off the hook that easy :) I would say that the native language of the Taveruu peoples prior to the Crusades would be probably be Marluk, or resembling Marluk, and that the native peoples we have all mentioned, the Mazurin for example, would still speak it. Though many of them would be bi-lingual, and speak the Xanarian tongue also.

Maybe what we need in the Netbook/supplement is a guide to Marluk language and dialect. Emphaisis should be given to place names and character names. The purpose here is not to teach people how to speak the language but to give a distinct character to the region we are lovingly creating. Let me take a look at it and see what I can come up with ;)

Jake, in Brian's absence, is there any material in OBAM which particularly references Taveruun?

[Mike Holmes]

Gary, run with it. It'll be cool to see what you come up with.

I am now thinking of the Maruzins as something like Hittites, or Chaldeans (northern Iraq/Syrai). Linguistically, I'd think they'd be very influenced by the "Aramaic" that I think you'd find in Dardanet, and somewhat by Helenic (greek from Turkey). But, yes, also Marluk. Think the modern Chaldean dialect that the Kurds (IIRC) speak.

Hmmm. I'm  really starting to see Taveruun as a combined Mideast/Balkan model now. Basically, it's a holdover Byzantine Empire (which explains its church afilliation). Assuming a Turk who somehow hasn't moved on the entire mideast, this means that the Marluks are in something like central asia and Persia (modern Iran), currently. Taveruun is the mideastern link between "European" Mainlund, and the East. Change my previous comment about Ormuz to being Basra (which totally fits the map). Ormuz would be in SE.

By that equation, the eight provinces would line up like so:

N: Northern and Eastern Anatolia (Turkey)
NE: Caucusus (Georgia)
E: Bablylonian Persia (Iraq/Iran)
SE: Southern coastal Persia (Coastal Iran, Pakistan)
S: Iraq/South Persia (Kuwait, Iraq)
SW: Assyria (Syria)
W: Southern and Western Anatolia (Turkey)
NW: Eastern Balkans (Romania/Bulgaria/Serbia)

Anyhow, imagine that the Byzantine empire made a late comback against the remaining Sassinid Turks (stretching to the Persian gulf). Or maybe a back and forth between the Seljuks and Byzantines. Then the Seljuks just inhabit most of Iran, Afghanistan, and the Central Asian countries at start, and really haven't started their westward expansion. They do, however, steal something...the cross of Jesus, why not... from Jerusalem, and take it back to Nishapur for safe keeping. Then the crusades are to get that back. So the Counter-Crusade would be the Turks finally taking Turkey and the rest of the mideast. Historically, they should take all of it, and then some (what in Wyerth would be the south eastern portions of Cyrinthmeir, and later, even as far as places like the Magyar country).

Starting to see potential parallels? Anyhow, just food for thought.

Mike

[Jake Norwood]

Jake, in Brian's absence, is there any material in OBAM which particularly references Taveruun?

Ummm...I dunno.

Jake

[Gary_Bingham]

Hmmm. I'm  really starting to see Taveruun as a combined Mideast/Balkan model now. Basically, it's a holdover Byzantine Empire (which explains its church afilliation). Assuming a Turk who somehow hasn't moved on the entire mideast, this means that the Marluks are in something like central asia and Persia (modern Iran), currently. Taveruun is the mideastern link between "European" Mainlund, and the East.

I'm in agreement with this and am happy to discuss the RL parallels. However I feel that for the sanity of players and GM's we should try to simplify the whole situation. The middle east has some of the most complex history of any region in the world and correspondingly has many, many languages and dialects.

As a simple model let's say that

1. In ancient times the Taveruu spoke Hebrew west of the Central mountains, and Turkish to the northeast, Chaldean to the southeast.
2. Dardanet took control of the region and the west adopted Aramiac. The west was a mix of Turkish and Aramiac. Hebrew dies out. Chaldean almost dies out and is spoken by a few tribes only.
3. The Marluks and Dardani vie for power over Taveruun and Arabic become the main language of the west.
4. The Xanarians arrive and stay. English become the main language in the east, with Aramaic the second language. English struggles to become the main language in the west with Turkish forming the second language. Arabic becomes the language of merchants.[/list:u]
Thus we are left with Weyrth counterparts for the following language to create.

1. Arabic (as spoke by Eastern Marluks)
2. Turkish (as spoke by native Taveruu in the east of Taveruun and west of Otarmarluk)
3. Aramaic  (as spoke by native Taveruu in the westof Taveruun)

4. English (An easy parallel for Euopean languages)[/list:u]
Mike what do you think?