Clement's Essay

[Bankuei]

Hi Jake,

Thanks for posting up an informative and solid essay.  Funny enough, I find that all the folks who train in combatative arts always come back to the same basic principles and truths, while those who do not, have tons of arguments and counter arguments :)

Anyhow, I think the two most important points addressed in that essay were "fighting is more than just physical" and "timing is more than speed", which are truths that I think anyone who trains for a period of time picks up.  Good stuff.  

Anyone else want to drop 2 cents in the hat?

Chris

[Valamir]

I find the core truths of Clement's article to be pretty universal beyond simply RPG combat, that being that
1) Detail does not equal realism, nor is there really a necessarily high correlation between them.
2) There's a vast gulf between the perspective of the scholar and the perspective of the practitioner
3) Reality is simply too dynamic and chaotic to fit into neat little IGO UGO boxes.

There are numerous wargame designers who could benefit from learning these principles.

[Jason Lee]

Thanks for posting up an informative and solid essay.  Funny enough, I find that all the folks who train in combatative arts always come back to the same basic principles and truths, while those who do not, have tons of arguments and counter arguments :)

Heh, well they still often manage to argue over philosophical (this is "The Way") and tactical differences (this is "The Way" because it's infighting).  Maximum power for minimum effort is the same for any athlete or martial artist.  If you're a gymnast the power for your back hand spring comes from your center.  The power in your snap kick comes from the same place.

Anyhow, I think the two most important points addressed in that essay were "fighting is more than just physical" and "timing is more than speed", which are truths that I think anyone who trains for a period of time picks up.  Good stuff.  

Yeah, I would agree.  Every normal person's nervous system seems to operates at the same speed.  Speed is all about tying your shoes, relaxation, maai, and endurance.  Tying your shoes refers to repetion until muscle memory.  Tying your shoes takes longer when you haven't done it a million times and need to think about it.  I've heard the same approach to maximum speed worded differently: flex the primary mover (the muscle moving the limb, eg: bicep) and keep the antagonist (the muscle responsible for the reverse movement, eg: tricep) relaxed; and the other wording is "just relax and move".  Maai is that wacky japanese word for distance/timing/positioning - it's key.  Wacking someone with a hammer fist or a chair leg is pretty much the same movement, but maai must be adjusted.  More distance can equal more time to act which can equal more "speed", just like less distance can equal less time to act and hence more "speed" for the person with better position.  Popular theory in some Aikido circles, and I agree, is that weapons training teaches you maai better.  It's easier to understand the distance relationships with a long inflexible lever - it remains constant and provides more of a birds-eye-view the maai relationships.  Once you start to understand the principals on this larger scale, it becomes easier to understand the relationships on the small, more dynamic, hand-to-hand range.  As for endurance, what's to say?  You slow down when you get tired.

As for proper mindset - that I think is actually the most important factor.  In my experience, the ability to act and act decisively is the primary factor in combat.  I've got a fair amount of training behind me, and I know it means precisely dick if I freeze or hesitate.  I've hesitated before, not knowing what to do, suprised at what was happening - if the guys with baseball bats had been bigger and stronger I wouldn't have made it out with a lost shoe and some bruises.    It's natural to freeze - most people do.  Hell, in this situation my 5 (or 6, kinda hard to remember) friends left me to be pounded on by 5 (or 4, kinda hard to remember) guys with bats.  They all went seperate ways!  Stupid?  Yes. But, that's what happens with fear.  People don't think.  This was before my training.  Thing is, how would I react now?  Sure I'm training, but it's in a safe environment - competition is not survival.  I know how bystanders would react if me or my loved ones were threatened - they would run.  I don't judge people negatively because of this - it's instinct.  I think it's naive to expect any other reaction.  Sure someone might act, but I would not expect it - that attitude is dangerous.  Fear is the real obstacle.

Yeah, I've just went and said a lot of 'Yep, uh huh, big deal, whatever Jason'.  Guess it all relates, in some convoluted way, to my personal issue with the modern media Chun-Li conditioning (small and light equals fast, big and strong equals slow).  Tell people they need to be stronger to be more nimble, and that being nimble has squat to do with speed other than the increase in general athletic ability, and it seems to violate the way the word is supposed to work.  'K, the ranting bit needs to remain small.  I've tossed in my 2 cents.

[Eamon Voss]

Heh, well they still often manage to argue over philosophical (this is "The Way") and tactical differences (this is "The Way" because it's infighting).  Maximum power for minimum effort is the same for any athlete or martial artist.  If you're a gymnast the power for your back hand spring comes from your center.  The power in your snap kick comes from the same place.

Ummm... not to be contrary, but the power for back handsprings comes from a combination of limb and torso strength, just like it does a snap kick.  It doesn't come from your 'center'.  Thats just orientalism at play.  

Please say no to orientalism.  I did.  And I'm a better martial artist for it.  Instead, I rely on good old fashioned laboratory proven physics and the careful study of bio-mechanics.  Western science and scientific method does wonders when applied to asian fighting arts.  Using a word like maai or center is simply a method of obfuscating something which can be easily explained through clear and simple English.  Instead, you should say something like:

'Until you learn to thrust your hips into a snap kick, you aren't committing as much of your body's strength as you do when you simply move the leg.'

See?  Nice and simple, and you don't have to rely on a word that can be misunderstood, mistranslated, or be the root of a 30 minute lecture.

So what is Maai?  Well, you defined it yourself as distance/timing/positioning.  Why not stick with those words instead of asking your readers to learn a word that can mean all three, which misses out on specificity?  By using English to describe your thoughts, you transcend having learned a Japanese martial art, and your experience and opinion suddenly becomes more valuable to the rest of us.  Partly because you are speaking the language that is considered the standard means of communication of this forum, and partly because we don't have to try and take into account that your knowledge might be colored by what your sensei told you (which sadly, from dealing with asian martial artists, is often colored... well... badly).

Well, I hope I haven't offended!

[Eamon Voss]

I find the core truths of Clement's article to be pretty universal beyond simply RPG combat, that being that
1) Detail does not equal realism, nor is there really a necessarily high correlation between them.
2) There's a vast gulf between the perspective of the scholar and the perspective of the practitioner
3) Reality is simply too dynamic and chaotic to fit into neat little IGO UGO boxes.

There are numerous wargame designers who could benefit from learning these principles.

These nails some great points about the article and combat in gaming.  To say a little more on each item:

1. So often people say 'System X is so realistic because it has manuevars and criticals and all sorts of detail and therefore is just like TRoS.  In my opinion, it ain't.  Combat isn't about crunching numbers.  TRoS at its heart is a very simple system with some complexity stapled on to reflect fighting manuevars.

2. The distance between scholars and practitioners is so huge with weapon or empty handed arts that I don't try and discuss the discuss online outside of specific forums anymore.

3. IGO UGO worked great for our great-grandpappies.  So did a Model T ford.  So why is it that IGO UGO is the standard method of combat for RPGs and wargamers and the Model T ford is a museaum piece?  And we gamers think we are smarter than the average person?  Yeah... right...

[Jason Lee]

Well, I hope I haven't offended!

Heh, not so much.  I think I can handle it.  Though to be blunt, you seem a little...scarred...from some experience with eastern arts.  Like you've been subject to close minded instructors and subjugated under traditional eastern philosophy against your will.  Eastern arts aren't opposed to scientific thought, nor vice versa.  I've seen my fair share of dojos that have "The Way".  Aikido, my central art, is particulary ripe with dojos adhering to 'the way it way taught and how you should think' above all else.  In my opinion, that kind of thinking is dangerous and naive in a martial art.  Oh, an it pisses me off. People are making crap everywhere.  In both Aikido and science.  All the little plastic trinkets don't come from China.

Ummm... not to be contrary, but the power for back handsprings comes from a combination of limb and torso strength, just like it does a snap kick.  It doesn't come from your 'center'.  Thats just orientalism at play.

Of course it does.  From center is just telling you what not to forget about.  When a gymastics instructor says 'use your hips' he doesn't mean 'leave your arms limp and fall on your head', he means don't forget they are frickin' important.  I used the word center instead of hara, partially from habit, and partially because it is english and gets the point across.  I shy from using the word hips because of the tendency for people to believe it means twisting.

Please say no to orientalism.  I did.  And I'm a better martial artist for it.  Instead, I rely on good old fashioned laboratory proven physics and the careful study of bio-mechanics.  Western science and scientific method does wonders when applied to asian fighting arts.  Using a word like maai or center is simply a method of obfuscating something which can be easily explained through clear and simple English.  Instead, you should say something like:

'Until you learn to thrust your hips into a snap kick, you aren't committing as much of your body's strength as you do when you simply move the leg.'

See?  Nice and simple, and you don't have to rely on a word that can be misunderstood, mistranslated, or be the root of a 30 minute lecture.

So what is Maai?  Well, you defined it yourself as distance/timing/positioning.  Why not stick with those words instead of asking your readers to learn a word that can mean all three, which misses out on specificity?  By using English to describe your thoughts, you transcend having learned a Japanese martial art, and your experience and opinion suddenly becomes more valuable to the rest of us.  Partly because you are speaking the language that is considered the standard means of communication of this forum, and partly because we don't have to try and take into account that your knowledge might be colored by what your sensei told you (which sadly, from dealing with asian martial artists, is often colored... well... badly).

First off, of course ones opinion is colored by what your instructor(s) told you...that's how learning works.  You can't escape it either - parent, sensie, or professor.  Doesn't mean you can't develop your own opinion.

A word on maai.  It is japanese derived martial art jargon - pure and simple.  The vast majority of words used in the japanese arts sound like nonsense to japanese people too.  I could walk up to a judo practicer in Japan, the US, or Bolivia and say 'O Soto Gari' and they'd know what I'm talking about...random japanese guy on the street would look at me like I was speaking Swahli (though, phonetically familiar Swahli).  The word maai means what I say, one word one meaning.  Don't read too much into it - it isn't bending before the will of the evil yellow skins, it's the right tool for the job.  The eastern arts taught in the states are mostly taught by americans - using western mindsets and preconceptions.  The Jujitsu style I studied for a while (Dan Zan) required increasing levels of competency in human anatomy along with technique.  Primary mover/Antagonist comes from sport science, not Toaism.  "Relax" is just easier the concept with than trying to figure out which muscles are movers and which are antagonists, and then try to control them individually.

Though, you are probably right for purposes of this forum martial arts jargon is best left out.

Back on topic, despite the philosophical (orientalism is bad versus you're taking the jargon too seriously) differences which I said we could still disagree on with violent force...no concepts are conflicting.  So I still say, yep I agree with the essay.  My very rudimentary experience with the grappling techniques in Flos Duellatorum (sp?) just reinforces the east/west similarity for me.  Though, I've got some tactical differences in opinion with it...truthfully, I haven't had enough experience with it to make any sort of educated judgements.  Just feelings.

[Darren Hill]

3. IGO UGO worked great for our great-grandpappies.  So did a Model T ford.  So why is it that IGO UGO is the standard method of combat for RPGs and wargamers and the Model T ford is a museaum piece?  And we gamers think we are smarter than the average person?  Yeah... right...

Well, just to be contrary, technically, TROS is an IGO UGO system, isn't it? :)

[Valamir]

Well, just to be contrary, technically, TROS is an IGO UGO system, isn't it? :)

Not in the least.  It may be "IGO IGO IGO IGO IGO Again".  Or "we both go at the same time".  or "from the time I drew my sword to the time I died, I didn't go at all".

[contracycle]

Japanese jargon is as valid as any other jargon.  "Orientalism" is not necessarily obscurantism; but granted there are limits imposed by inter-cultural translation.  The jargon can serve to communicate batches of concepts that may only themselves be loosely understood or difficult to articulate.  Yes, you could you re-interpret most Japanse jargon into something that sounds more familiar to the Western ear?  Of course, but a lot of elegance will be lost.  There IS virtue in learning a developed form in its own idiom.  In fact I find it illuminating that different traditions organise data into different "lumps"; there are things to be learned from this that go beytond either lump in its own right.

Eamon Voss wrote:

Partly because you are speaking the language that is considered the standard means of communication of this forum, and partly because we don't have to try and take into account that your knowledge might be colored by what your sensei told you

1) English uses a huge number of foreign words, I see no reason that Japanese should be excluded.
2) we have to take into account the colouring introduced by a sensei in any martial arts study, not only the oriental ones.

[Eamon Voss]

Though to be blunt, you seem a little...scarred...from some experience with eastern arts.  Like you've been subject to close minded instructors and subjugated under traditional eastern philosophy against your will.

Scarred, definately.  When you had to listen for 30 minutes to an old Japanese guy lecture on the difference between shouting and yelling in pideon English when he's been teaching in the USA for 40 years, you get scarred quick.  Worse, all he taught was bad kihon.  It made me glad I'm not a Japanese martial artist!  Then again, I've had to deal with Filipino quack healers!  LOL!  

Eastern arts aren't opposed to scientific thought, nor vice versa.  I've seen my fair share of dojos that have "The Way".  Aikido, my central art, is particulary ripe with dojos adhering to 'the way it way taught and how you should think' above all else.  In my opinion, that kind of thinking is dangerous and naive in a martial art.  Oh, an it pisses me off. People are making crap everywhere.  In both Aikido and science.  All the little plastic trinkets don't come from China.

Wow!  The second open-minded aikido person I've met in 15 years of martial arts!  What a day!  Heh heh.  The stories I could tell you about my experiences with aikidoka...

From center is just telling you what not to forget about.  When a gymastics instructor says 'use your hips' he doesn't mean 'leave your arms limp and fall on your head', he means don't forget they are frickin' important.  I used the word center instead of hara, partially from habit, and partially because it is english and gets the point across.  I shy from using the word hips because of the tendency for people to believe it means twisting.

Well, in my experience, using exact English terminology is better than using another language.  And if people twist or do something silly, a good teacher gently puts his hands on the person and shows them how to move their hips in the right way.  After a dozen times, the student gets it.

A word on maai.  It is japanese derived martial art jargon - pure and simple.  The vast majority of words used in the japanese arts sound like nonsense to japanese people too.  I could walk up to a judo practicer in Japan, the US, or Bolivia and say 'O Soto Gari' and they'd know what I'm talking about...random japanese guy on the street would look at me like I was speaking Swahli (though, phonetically familiar Swahli).  The word maai means what I say, one word one meaning.  Don't read too much into it - it isn't bending before the will of the evil yellow skins, it's the right tool for the job.  The eastern arts taught in the states are mostly taught by americans - using western mindsets and preconceptions.  The Jujitsu style I studied for a while (Dan Zan) required increasing levels of competency in human anatomy along with technique.  Primary mover/Antagonist comes from sport science, not Toaism.  "Relax" is just easier the concept with than trying to figure out which muscles are movers and which are antagonists, and then try to control them individually.

Though, you are probably right for purposes of this forum martial arts jargon is best left out.

In my opinion, the only useful reason for technical jargon is the international reason.  And considering the effect of regional accents on jargon, the use of such jargon is often not as useful as one would suspect.  But as we agree, on a general forum such as this one, using jargon is not just unneccessary, it is distracting.

[Eamon Voss]

Japanese jargon is as valid as any other jargon.  "Orientalism" is not necessarily obscurantism; but granted there are limits imposed by inter-cultural translation.  The jargon can serve to communicate batches of concepts that may only themselves be loosely understood or difficult to articulate.  Yes, you could you re-interpret most Japanse jargon into something that sounds more familiar to the Western ear?  Of course, but a lot of elegance will be lost.  There IS virtue in learning a developed form in its own idiom.  In fact I find it illuminating that different traditions organise data into different "lumps"; there are things to be learned from this that go beytond either lump in its own right.

I spend too much of my time on a Japanese martial arts forum.  There, one thing that all the senior teacher level people end up wishing they could do, is divorce the Japanese jargon out of their techniques when talking to their peers or students.  It is bad enough that you have round kicks, round house kicks, half-moon kicks, but then you add in mawashi geri and ma geri.  Jargon, unfortunately, is not just inconsistent in English, it is also inconsist in Japanese.

Worse, the thing I've noticed is that people retain the jargon, especially in Japanese styles, when trying to discuss things with people from other cultural styles.  From using maai on a predominantly HEMA gaming board, to using mawashi geri in my old muay thai gym on puzzled muay thai coaches, to the calling of my own person 'sensei' at my current training hall.  I've seen my old kali teacher asked where he puts his ki in a throw, and I've heard a fencing buddy who instructs have to try and convince a student to stop using Japanese names for stances.  

Eamon Voss wrote:

1) English uses a huge number of foreign words, I see no reason that Japanese should be excluded.

Do I misunderstand you here?  We should allow all technical terms from Japanese here?  What about tagalog or German?  Forgive me then if I use 'snake' and 'vine' instead of 'disarm', okay?  Also forgive Jake and the HEMA crowd start describing everything related to swordplay in German.

That English has loan words doesn't excuse unneccessary jargon.  That pork is a French loan word for pig meat taken from a time when Norman nobility ruled England doesn't allow maai to be used instead of distancing and timing.  Distancing and timing being two distinct yet interrelated concepts.

2) we have to take into account the colouring introduced by a sensei in any martial arts study, not only the oriental ones.

See, even you use 'sensei' here instead of the word, 'teacher'.  So I guess I  should say that one problem I have with TRoS combat is that it doesn't handle advante and retrete the way I like, nor the application of male and female triangles.  But you should be okay with that, because according to you, 'we have to take into account the colouring introduced by a sensei in any martial arts study.'

Jargon can be lots of fun.  And I love knowing bits and pieces of it.  But I never use it unless absolutely necessary.  And the English language almost never needs it.  English can support the words needed, words like thrust, slash, hack, cut, long stance, short stance, high stance, power, flow, relaxation, kick, punch, counter, breathing, exhalation, round, side, stepping and stretch.  The list goes on and on.  Cultural coloration is fun in the descriptive part of books, role-playing games and movies, but it shouldn't be part of technical discussions unless absolutely necessary.  And to be honest, 99.99% of the time it ain't.

[Valamir]

Shouldn't the Jargon stuff be taken to another thread, if discussed at all.  John didn't use any in his article.

[Jason Lee]

Scarred, definately.  When you had to listen for 30 minutes to an old Japanese guy lecture on the difference between shouting and yelling in pideon English when he's been teaching in the USA for 40 years, you get scarred quick.  Worse, all he taught was bad kihon.  It made me glad I'm not a Japanese martial artist!  Then again, I've had to deal with Filipino quack healers!  LOL!

Sounds pretty crap-tastic.  I swear it's all the group and instructor - the art is secondary.

Wow!  The second open-minded aikido person I've met in 15 years of martial arts!  What a day!  Heh heh.  The stories I could tell you about my experiences with aikidoka...

I makes me sad that there is a ring of truth to this.

As an example:  before my time, the man who was in charge of our region tossed someone out of the whole US-wide organization because he was practicing other styles of Aikido.  Ridiculous.  That's the extreme, and it can happen.  Of course, things are radically different now.  The Colorado Aikido Summit I attended this year is a testament to that.  And that the current head-guy endorses exposure to other martial arts.

Aikidoka are close minded and absorbed in cult-like behavior is probably no more true than American Kempo guys are just thugs.  I imagine western martial arts have there own unique sets of stigmas.  Vocal minority I suppose.  I hate it when it seems like that; or the vocal minority is the only person with enough commitment to teach.

*****

As for the jargon - I'll just stop and acknowledge Ralph.

[Jake Norwood]

Let's get off the east-west thing and back on topic. C'mon, guys...

Jake

[Ashren Va'Hale]

yeah, and to begin with you can help me find this article... I checked the site and went yto the what is page and the menu on the left is all messed up and I cant seem to get it to load right and I cant find anything anywhere else. anyone care to send me a link  or let me know exactly how I am being retarded and why I cant find it?