TMW:COTEC - Trait/Ability Design System (longish)

[RobMuadib]

Hi all

Yes, I am still around, and still whittling away on The Million
Worlds. Being that the game is based on the use of a design
architecture by all of the players, I have found myself working on
the basic Persona design system. Or, more accurately, designing an
underlying meta-system which I can use to define the use of and set
the cost of all of the Traits/Abilities within the game, Attributes,
Proficiencies, Advantages, Perks, and of course Metabilities/Powers.

So I have come up with a basic effect/component type system, here
influenced by Hero 5th (of course), DC Heroes, Greg Porter's EABA,
and Paradigm by S. Isaac Dealy. I am looking for general comments
and criticisms on what I have so far, and help in fleshing out the
basic "Effect Types" around which the system is built. Here I am
trying to emulate the very flexible EABA system and Paradigm's
system as well (which is a true ability design system).

I will include the design outline I have so far for the system
below. If you have the time & interest, please give it an overview
and let me know what you think, and any ideas you might have for
Effect Types or other elements. Thanks for your interest.

MEGA-GAUGE TRAIT DEFINITION SYSTEM
===============================================

In the MEGA-GAUGE system, Persona are defined by a number of Traits.
Each of these Traits define one or more Abilities the Persona
possess.
Persona can use these abilities to peform an Act on a target that is
within the scope of that Ability. Their ability to perform these Act
is based on the Trait Score. The higher the Trait Score, the greater
the Persona's Ability. These Abilities are defined by eight
properties, which describe how they are work in the game. These
eight properties (and their abbreviations), Meta-Type (TYPE),
Detectability(DET), Target(TGT), Range(RNG), Time(TIME), Mechanics
(MECH), Effects (EFX), & Duration (DTN) are referred to as the
Ability Profile.


Each property of the ability is assigned a default value, which is
given a Cost Factor (CF) of zero. If that property is different, it
is given a positive or negative CF modifier, dependinng on whether
that difference enhances or limits the use of that ability. The
total of all the Cost Factor modifiers, is then used to determine
the cost of getting a particular GP Score in the ability, according
to the following formula.
(Trait Score + 1)*((Trait Score + 2)/2)*(1+ CF/10) if CF > 0
(Trait Score + 1)*((Trait Score + 2)/2) if CF = 0
(Trait Score + 1)*((Trait Score + 2)/2)/(1+ CF/10) if CF < 0

Default Ability Definition
===============================================

Perform a (meta-type) [TYPE] Act that is (visibly, audibly & meta)
[Detectable (DET)]on a (single Obj/Ind) [Target (TGT)] at (TS
Meters) [Range (RNG)]by taking (1 second) [Time (TIME)] Using the
(Outcome Test) [Mechanics (MECH)] to produce (General Action) [Effects
(EFX)] with a (instant) [Duration (DTN)].

[Meta-Type]
------------------------------------------------

Meta-Type describes the "source" of an ability, indicating how it
operates. Abilities fall into several broad categories with a number
of sub-categories underneath. The Metatypes are
Physical(Biological,Physiological,etc.), Mental(Intellectual,
Psychic, Psionic), Empathic(Emotional, Spiritual, & Magical),
Technological(Mechanical, Electronic, Cybernetic, Bionic, etc) &
Social(Societal, Cultural,Economic). These can also include sub-
types. Abilities within one Meta-Type generally don't work on
abilities of another Meta-Type. Though their effects may interact as
normal. The meta-type also defines the default Attributes used to
resolve the ability use with the mechanics, such as the abilities
Acting Score, Opposing Score, Ability Factor, & Success Dice Limit
for Outcome Tests. (Physical abilities work against Physical
Attributes, Mental against Mental attributes, & Empathic vs
Empathic Attributes.

[Detectability (DET)]
--------------------------------------------------------
Abilities have a noticeable and detectable agency by which they
occur, allowing a Persona invoking them to be determined as the
source of the abilities effect. By Default The use of an ability is
assumed to be perceptible by 3 sense groups. It use, or the
generation of it's effect is assumed to be visibile, audible, and
detectable by one other sense group, depending on the nature of the
ability. Additonally, the use of an ability, or it's effect is
detectable by means of it's meta-type as well.

Standard Detectability - +0
Undetectable by Targeting
sense Group - +6
Undetectable by Non-Targeting
Sense Group - +2
Undetectable by All Sense
Groups(Sight/Hearing/Smell/taste) +10
Undetectable Effects - As Above
Undetectable by Single Sense +2

[Target (TGT)] = Includes #/Mass/Scope/Area Modifiers
(Super/Broad/Narrow/Focused)
===============================================
Self Only -5
(SIZE 0) Object/Individual +0(-1 Objects Only, -1 Living
Only,- 3 High int Only)
Multiple Objects/Individuals +3 + 1/2(GP Score(#)
Single Large Object                 + Max SIZE
Small Objects Only                  - Min SIZE
Ability Scope: Superset +20 (Any within a Meta-
Type/Category)
Ability Scope: Broad +10 (Any Within a
Field/Class)
Ability Scope: Narrow +0 (Any Within a
Subject/Group)
Ability Scope: Focused -10 (Any Within a
Topic/Cluster)
AoE: Radius(TS+SIZE m.) +(10+(1/2 GP Score
(Multiplier))
AoE: Cone (TS+SIZE m.) +(10+(1/2 GP Score
(Multiplier))
AoE: Line (TS+SIZE+3 m.) +(10+(1/2 GP Score(Multiplier))
AoE: Custom Volume (TS+SIZE+5 Hexes) +(10+(1/2 GP Score(Multiplier))
AoE: Fixed Radius +(5+(1/2 GP Score (Radius m.)
AoE: Fixed Cone +(5+(1/2 GP Score-
(Side Length m.)
AoE: Fixed Line +(5+1/2 GP Score+
(length m.)
AoA: Fixed Volume +(5 +(1/2 GP Score (# of m^3
Hexes))
AoE: Modifiers
AoE: Selective +3
AoE: Non-Selective -3
AoE: Conforming +5
AoE: Autofire ability +10
AoE: Hole In The Middle +3 (+5 if size is
variable)
AoA: Explosion -9/-7/-5/-3/-1 (Effect
drops TS - (4x/3x/2x/1x/1/2x) GP Score (distance m.))
Usable On Others
Usable By Other +3
Usable Simultaneously +5
Usable As Attack +10
Modifiers
Ranged +5
Extra Objects/Individuals +3 + 1/2(GP Score(#)
LOS not needed after initial Transfer Persistent

[Range (RNG)]
===============================================
Range CF Mod
---------------------------------
No Range/Touch -5
Ranged (TS + SIZE m.) +0
Fixed Range +(1 +1/2(GP Score(Range))
Extended Range +(1/2(GP Score (Range Multiplier))
Limited Range -(-1(-3(x1/2)),-2(-5(x1/3)),-3(-7(x1/5)),-
4(-10(x1/10th))
Accuracy +(1/2 GP Score(Effective Range)(X1/2 For Quick
AimTime, X1/4 Slow)
No Range Modifiers + 10
LOS Range + 10
Extraordinary Range:
Indirect +3/+5/+7 (FixedPosition/away;Variable
Position/Away;Variable position/Direction)
Transdimensional +3/+5/+7 (Single Dimension/Related Group/Any
Dimension)
Through Time +1/2 (1/2 GP Score( time in s.) (Per
direction)+10 for attack powers)

[Time (TIME)]
===============================================
Each ability requires the Persona to spent a certain amount of time
and effort to invoke the ability, or otherwise produce it's effect.

Time Increment
------------------------------------------------

This can be an increments of 1 or more Action Phases(0,1/2,1, AC =2x
Action Phases),Seconds(+0), Minutes(+18), Hours(+36), days(+50),
weeks(+59), months (+65), years(+76) etc. Minimum amount of time an
Ability can take to use is a 0- Phase Action. The Minimum time an
"attack" ability can take to use is a 1/2 Phase action (1 AC). GP
Score equal to Time Value in Seconds is used as Time CF Mod. With
times over 1 Second being a negative CF Mod.


Time Increment CF Mod
---------------------------------------
0-Phase +10
1/2 Phase +5
Full Phase/1 Second +0
3 seconds -5
5 seconds -7
10 seconds -10
Minutes -18
Hours -36
Days -50
Weeks -59
Months -65
Years -76
Decades -86
Centuries -96
Millenia -106

Increment Modifiers CF Mod
-------------------------------------
Initial Activation Only x1/2
Normal Increment +0
Absolute Increment -5
Extra Time +2
Less Time +2
Uninterruptable +0
Interruptable +5(Uses Interval based on Time
requirement for Test)

The Increment can be Fixed(such as 1/2 phase action, or 4 Seconds),
or Variable, based on Target, Complexity, or Opposing Score.
Further the time requirement is either Normal or Absolute. Normal
time requirements are benchmarks based on the time needed by the
average person, and as such can be performed faster by faster
Persona, such as someong with super-speed. Absolute time
requirements are independent of the personae performing them, and
require the full amount of in-game time & effort to be spent before
the ability can be invoked.

For multi-phase actions, the Persona must spend a number Action
Phases equal to required time length spending the necessary effort
to invoke the ability. This is done as a Multi- phase action. (or
spend necessary amount of AC's on the task.) If the time required is
absolute, he must spend a number of Standard Action Phases (segment
30, 20, 10) on the task, with Action Phases accruing each Action
Round starting on the first standard action phase after his on or
after his initiative, if he is slow, will take longer. (Or must
spend number of phases at task, during which he can spend all, 1/2
or none of his AC's on other actions, depending on effort.)

Certain abilities may allow Extra Time to be spent, to increase
chance of Success, or may be Rushed, allowing less time to be spent,
with decreased chance of Success. (See time rules under Tests)
Abilities with Absolute time requirements can neither be hurried or
rushed.

This time can be either Uninterruptable (Must spent that amount of
continuous time to invoke ability, or effect is lost. Can quit
invoking the effect if necessary.

Interruptable
(Still must spend entire amount of time, however, any time spent
performing act is cumulative, once necessary time & effort has been
spent, the ability is invoked). To restart an interruptable
ability, that was voluntarily suspended, the persona must succeed at
an Mind:WL Test against an OS equal to the GP Score corresponding to
the number of seconds the ability use has been interrupted. A player
CAN lose the time spent on Interruptable ability use by other means,
such as the destruction of his preparations or materials, based on
any limitations placed on the ability use.

Concentration
===============================================
For actions with a time requirement of more than a 0-phase, or a 1/2
Phase, a Persona must focus a variable amount of attention &
concentration towards invoking his ability. This effort falls into
one of five categories, Incidental, Continous, Committed, Full
Commitment, and Total Commitment.

Incidental (+0)
-------------------
A Incidental effort ability requires the persona to dedicate a 0-
phase action each Action Phase to invoking their ability until the
time requirement has been met.

Committed (-5)
-----------------------
A Committed effort ability requires the persona to dedicate a Full-
phase action each Action Phase to invoking their ability until the
time requirement has been met. They may only take 0-Phase actions,
such as a Step during this time.

Full Commitment (-10)
-----------------------------------------------------------

A Full Committment effort ability requires the persona to dedicate a
full-phase each action phase to invoking their ability until the
time requirement has been met. Further, they are 1/2 OS against any
melee attacks launched at them. They have limited awareness of their
surroundings during this time but may make a PER roll, at a +5DM,
with a targeting sense to notice important events. They may only
take 0-Phase actions, such as a Step during this time.

Total Commitment (-20)
-----------------------------------------------------------------

A Total Committment effort ability requires the persona to dedicate
a full-phase each action phase to invoking their ability until the
time requirement has been met. Further, they are at Zero(0) OS
against any melee attacks launched at them. They are unaware of
their surroundings, other than the target of their ability, and they
may not move, or take any other 0-phase actions during this time.



[Mechanics (MECH)}
===============================================
The effect of an ability can be determined in one of three ways.
By an Outcome Test, by a Ratings Test, or by a Comparison Test.

Outcome Test Mechanics
===============================================
[Opposing Score]
------------------------------------------------------------------
Metatype Aptitude Attribute +0
Metatype Capacity Attribute +0
Ranged Difficulty +0
Resisted by Proficiency +5

[Acting Score]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Metatype Aptitude Attribute +0
Metatype Capacity Attribute +0
Requires a Proficiency -5

[Ability Factor]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
GP Score of Ability +0
Metatype Aptitude Attribute +0
Metatype Capacity Attribute +0
Metatype Attribute's Aptitude -5
Based On Proficiency -5
Based On Weapon/Equipment -5


[Success Dice Limit]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Metatype Aptitude Attribute +0
Based on EPEN + Success Result Score -5
Based On Proficiency -5

[Failure Dice Limit]
-------------------------------------------------
Based On Acting Score +0
Based On Proficiency -5

Ratings Test Mechanics
===============================================
[Dicestep]
-------------------------------------------
Based On Trait Score +5
Based On Proficiency +0

Comparison Test Mechanics
===============================================
SRS = Metatype Aptitude Attribute +0
SRS = Metatype Capacity Attribute +0
SRS = Stat +0
SRS = Trait Score +0
SRS = Proficiency -5


[Effect (EFX)]= Specific Application of Result Score
===============================================
Ability Effects define the way the Result Score of the
ability is applied to determine it's effect in the game.

Information Effect +0
----------------------------------
Compare Result Score to Information Points 1+ obvious points, 1/2 OS
equals Non-obvious info, 1xOS+ Detailed/Non-Obvious Info 2xOS+
Everything THere is to know.

Damage Effect +5
-------------------------------------
Apply attack with TS PEN & TS DMG against target's
Defenses.

Defensive Effect +5
--------------------------------------
Resist Penetration of attack by Defense Rating(DR).

Difficulty Modifier Effect +5
-------------------------------
Apply DM Modifier to subject/target equal
to Result Score

General Action Effect +0
-------------------------------
Allows target to succesfully perform
action of some Scope. Includes
Use/Operation - Succesfully use/Operate Item
(weapons/Vehicles/Equipment)
Knowledge/Information Effect - Gain some knowledge/Information
Build/Repair - Successfully build or repair item
Complementary Action - Provides Modifier to another Act by character.
Prevents Action - Prevents subject from taking particular Act or use
of some ability.
Interaction Effect - Allows
Charm/Persuasion/Interrogation/Intimidation

Movement Effect +5
------------------------------------------
Allows Subject to move at Speed equal to Success Result Score.

Creation Effect +20
------------------------------------------


Transformation Effect +10
------------------------------------------

Knack Effect +5
------------------------------------------
adds TS to Test Total & Success Total of Action within Scope

Modify Trait Score Effects +20
==============================================
can add or subtract TS from Target Trait Score.

[Duration (DTN)]
===============================================
Duration is the amount of time the Effect generated by the ability
remains in effect, after it has been succesfully invoked and
targeted.

Duration CF Mod.
------------------------------------------
Instant +0
Last As User Wills +10 (LOS/Range/Consciousness)(+5
Persistent, +3 Inherent)
Conditional Duration +10/+20 (+20 for Attack Powers)
Fixed Duration +(5 + 1/2 GP Score(Duration s.))
(NO LOS/Range/Conc req.)
Success Based Duration +(1/2GP Score (base Duration s.)) (=
Result Score + Base Duration score)


Thanks

[RobMuadib]

Hey

As usual, I seem to have carpet-bombed when I wanted a surgical strike in asking for feedback. So, instead I will offer a shorter focused post/question to respond too.

Ok, as I said, I am putting together a "Universal Ability Profile" deal. Which is to provide a meta-system by which I can define the mechanics of and set the cost of all of a character's abilities as represented by his various Traits, including Attributes, Proficiencies, Advantages, Perks, and most importantly Metabilities/Powers.


Under this system, all of the abilities are designed by specifiying the values for each of seven properties that make up the UAP. These eight properties (and their abbreviations), Meta-Type (TYPE), Detectability(DET), Target(TGT), Range(RNG), Time(TIME), Mechanics (MECH), Effects (EFX), & Duration (DTN).

Each property is given a default value, which represents the "default" ability, this default ability is given a Cost Factor of zero, and follows the triangular progression (3,6,10,15,21,28,36,etc.)per GP Point bought for the Trait Score. Each Ability then can modify these values to reflect the ability. With modifiers that Enhance the abilities usefulness having a positive CF modifier, and those that limit it having a negative CF mod. (Where the mods provide a linear multiplier or faction of the cost, respectively.)

Oh yeah;
Default Ability Profile
============================================

Perform a (meta-type) [TYPE] Act that is (visibly, audibly & meta)
[Detectable (DET)]on a (single Obj/Ind) [Target (TGT)] at (TS Meters)
[Range (RNG)]by taking (1 second) [Time (TIME)] and making (Outcome Test) [Mechanics (MECH) to apply Result Score to (General
Action) [Effects (EFX)] with a (instant) [Duration (DTN)].

So I have a lengthy list of mods for TYPE, TIME, RNG, TGT, MECH, DTN, as you have seen, but what I am wanting his help on coming up with a good set of generic/universal Effect Templates for the EFX The idea is to apply various cost modifiers to these abilities based on my arbritrary standard of how effective they are.  Oh yeah, CF's represent 1/10th modifiers to cost. So Costfactor 7 would increase cost by 700%, relative to triangular progression, so first point could cost 24,then 42, 70, 105, etc.
for Trait Score.

OK, so here are the Effect Templates i considered so far.

General Action Effect +0
-------------------------------
Allows User to perform action of some Scope. Includes;
Use/Operation - Succesfully use/Operate Item (weapons/Vehicles/Equipment)
Knowledge/Information Effect - Gain some knowledge/Information
Build/Repair - Successfully build or repair item
Complementary Action - Provides Modifier to another Act by character.
Prevents Action - Prevents subject from taking particular Act or use of
                 some ability.
Interaction Effect - Allows Charm/Persuasion/Interrogation/Intimidation
Resistance Action- Allows character to resist effects of hazard/etc.
General Action - Allows character to perform some action.

The Effect Template then determines how the Success Result Score is used to determine success of action. Usually by comparing the Persona's Success Result Score to the Opposing Score to determine level of Success where necessary.  Or otherwise using the Result Score against a GP Score.

Damage Effect +10
-------------------------------------
Apply attack with Trait Score PEN & TS DMG against target's
Defenses.

Defensive Effect +5
--------------------------------------
Resist Penetration of attack by Defense Rating(DR).

Difficulty Modifier Effect +5
-------------------------------
Apply DM Modifier to subject/target equal
to Result Score

Enhanced Movement Effect +5
------------------------------------------
Allows Target to add TS(m.) to his relevant MOVE Score.

Super Movement Effect +10
-------------------------------------
Allows Target to increase his relevant MOVE Score by TS (multiplies move)

Knack Effect +5
------------------------------------------  
Target adds TS to Test Total & Success Total of Outcome Test within it's scope

Modify Trait Score Effect +20
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Can Add or Subtract from Trait Score of Subject.

Creation Effect +30
------------------------------------------  
Create TS(kg.) of Object of no more than 1/2 TS Size, with Abilities
limited sum total of TS

Transformation Effect +30
-------------------------------------------
Transform TS(kg.) of Object of no more than 1/2 TS Size, altering abilities
with a limited sum total of TS



Anyway, that should give you an idea of what I am looking for help in developing. A generic Effect of abilities in terms of mechanics. Anyhelp is appreciated, though it looks like I made this one too long too, sigh.

[Jason Lee]

I'm having trouble following (not certain why triangular progression either), but if I'm getting your question...

The costs seem different in your first post than in your second.  For example, Damage Effect and Defensive Effect are both + 5 in the first post, but in the second Damage Effect is + 10.  Depends on how it plays out for you, but I would even them out if not make Defensive Effect the more expensive of the two (grenades are easier to get than the ability to ignore grenades).

I assume these all can be made more powerful by increasing the cost, based off the base cost?  If true, I'd combine Enhancement Movement Effect and Super Movement Effect with some sort of arcane computation to determine to bonus based off level of Movement Effect purchased, seeing as how crunchy doesn't look like something you are trying to avoid.  Movement Effect could then be extended to include teleportation (something missing on the list), with the level determining range/time for teleportation.  I'd also be tempted to keep swimming, flight, tunneling, and other such stuff in Movement Effect, as they just modify the effectiveness of movement.

And...If I'm assuming what Knowledge/Information Effect is correct, I'd make that cost even more than Creation Effect - especially if that Effect can reflect seeing into the past, mind reading or clairvoyance.

If telekinesis like effects could said to be a Use/Operation Effect at extended range I won't point it out.

...All this is assuming I understood your question.

[Mike Holmes]

I like what you're doing here. Pretty rough right now, but I see how you're taking all the Hero System mechanics and generalizing them to an even more mechanical extent. I've often thought about doing that myself, and am intrigued by your attempt. For example, all defensive powers like Force field, Force Wall, Armor, Power Defense, etc, are all the same ability just with diferent limitations. It makes sense to treat them this way. And I like that you require most Advantages and Lims to be addressed in the basic profile.

That all said, I'm not seeing where Limitations come in. Advantages that don't affect the basic profile?

Your second list of effects seems better. I like that you included the "Modify Traits" one, as this reflects the Hero "adjustment" powers. OTOH, the best way to generalize all this is to consider attacks to be "drains" on abilities like BODY. Thereby rolling attacks and adjustment powers together into a more general mechanical category. After all, they work pretty much identically, don't they?

On another front, how are you going to handle "Multiple Attack" abilities like autofire. The argument that seems to make the most sense to me in terms of generalization would be to allow for use times to be less than "one phase". That is, instead of saying that you can attack many times on one phase, this would effectively increase your SPD instead. Or something to that effect. It's hard to comment without knowing how initiative works.

On cost, why the escallating costs? This is going to cause all sorts of problems, especially when you have to consider the idea of the use of multiple powers for attacks. Why buy the "8d" attack for 55, when you can buy 8 "1d" attacks for 24 and use them all at once? Basically the stacking powers rules in Hero Fifth are a breakthrough in the understanding of the costs of multiple powers in terms of their cross effectiveness. Essentially the result is that one can only use a linear scale, or disallow multiple simultaneous power use. The problem with the latter is that makes things like complex spells impossible, not to mention other philosophical problems.

I'd go back to linear. I'd also challenge you to keep effects linear when possible. Otherwise you'll get the Hero System, exponential to linear problems with things like throwing, damage vs. Def, etc, not to mention the granularity problems. That all said, I'm imagining requiring a spreadsheet to build these abilities.

BTW, I'm hoping that you decide to include all abilities under this system, meaning that there ought not to be any "skills" or "Stats", just this system, which can handle all that if done correctly, IMO. Single system, easy to use in play.

Mike

[Dr. Velocity]

Each Ability then can modify these values to reflect the ability. With modifiers that Enhance the abilities usefulness having a positive CF modifier, and those that limit it having a negative CF mod. (Where the mods provide a linear multiplier or faction of the cost, respectively

Huh? The abilities have values, and then the abilities can modify this value to reflect this ability? I am so lost here.

I thought the same thing as Mike, that it looks like you took the admittedly already fairly 'universal' HERO system and dissected it into even smaller components - which is fascinating but seems like it could take it BACK into being overly detailed. However, I really do like the idea of 'create your own actions' which will have their own statistics, die rolls, etc - its sort of like a gamist answer to the narrativist 'make up stuff on the spot' - its freeform, yet still has requirements and actual mechanics-based considerations for play - really intriguing.

That said, I am STILL not following your examples of Repair/Build, Prevent, General Action - you list these as 0 Effect Actions but not HOW they are this. I don't understand what the 'stats' for these actions ARE - there is no guideline to go by here, example-wise, if I wanted to create 'Shoot a Bow'... I'm one of those people who learn by and base initial creations and attempts off of given examples, so I can basically 'check my work' by working along with the example to come out with the same result, so simply saying Ice Skating is a +1 or whatever means absolutely nothing to me, and possibly players used to less abstraction in their mechanics may find this to be the case for them also. I would try to help provide examples as you requsted, but I have no idea how! ;p

[Jason Lee]

On another front, how are you going to handle "Multiple Attack" abilities like autofire. The argument that seems to make the most sense to me in terms of generalization would be to allow for use times to be less than "one phase". That is, instead of saying that you can attack many times on one phase, this would effectively increase your SPD instead. Or something to that effect. It's hard to comment without knowing how initiative works.

This is probably way to abstract, but running the entire effect resolution system off penalties might be an approach.  Then you'd only have  two rules for all effects:  add bonus or negate penalty.  Or is that one rule?

Esplane pleeze?

Values are completely arbitrary:  additional action: - 5, attack at range: - 20, get to China in an hour: - 50.

So, with a rolling system that has success levels, a + 5 in the skill Martial Arts would effect the roll in the same way that a + 5 additional action ability would except that the additional action ability would be limited in how success level could be interpreted (negates up to - 5 in additional actions penalties).  Keeping with Martial Arts;  a ranged attack (chi blast punch, or whatever) could be performed by someone with supernatural levels of skill, or someone could have the ability to conjure a submachine gun - which would negate the ranged attack penalty and might provide additional actions bonuses (automatic fire).  'Get to China in an hour' was going to be my teleport/run like the flash/conjure airplane/dig a hole example, but I don't think I need to explain further.

Like I said, maybe too abstract, just food for thought.

[RobMuadib]

Jason, Mike, Doc Velocity


Hey, thanks for your comments & help. I will here attempt to explain my design notes, since like only I seem to know what class they are for:)

First, I am going to review my basic concept so far with, gasp, some examples, to hopefully make things clearer. Now, all of this number wrangling revolves around the game mechanics of course, you can find a copy of the core mechanics PDF  here, should you want to check my footnotes.  Since much of this is bound up in the way the mechanics work. They strongly resemble DC Heroes/Masterbook in that they revolve around manipulating and convering GP Scores or Result/Effect Scores Also, the relation to the Core Table and underlying log scale of Trait Scores,is used to convert among different Values and such. THis is meant to make the system seamless and robust. Essentially EFX templates are different ways you can use the Result Score to produce mechanical effects in the game, i.e. pretty highly abstracted, even more so than Hero.

(Quick explanation of CORE Table system, it is based on a 10 points to a factor of 10 exponential scale, Repeating the GP Score/Value progression below)

GP Score                       Value.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
0                                    1.0
1                                    1.25
2                                    1.6
3                                    2.0
4                                    2.5
5                                    3.25
6                                    4.0
7                                    5.0
8                                    6.5
9                                    8.0
10                                  10.0
(values above or below these multiply or divide by a factor of 10 respectively.)

Ok. Let me provide an example of how the System works by making up an Energy Blast Power.

First, we define ability by altering the "Default values" of each property of the Default Ability Definition. Which simply provides the default, or assumed values/definitions for each of the eight 'ability' elements, Metatype (TYPE),Detectability (DET), Target (TGT), Range (RNG),Time (TIME), Mechanics (MECH),Effects (EFX),& Duration (DTN). An abilities Cost Factor, which starts at zero for each element set at the default values, is adjusted by each default value changed whether that change makes the ability more effective(less time, greater range, longer duration) (Enhancement) or less effective (Limitation) (more time to use, shorter range, shorter duration.)

Default Ability Definition
===============================================

Perform a (meta-type) [TYPE] Act that is (visibly, audibly & meta)
[Detectable (DET)]on a (single Obj/Ind) [Target (TGT)] at (TS Meters)
[Range (RNG)]by taking (1 second) [Time (TIME)] and making (Outcome
Test) [Mechanics (MECH) to apply Result Score to (General Action)
[Effects (EFX)] with a (instant) [Duration (DTN)].

(Note at present I rewrote the MECH section, which basically sets what scores you use and what type of Test, Outcome Test, you have to roll dice pitting variables to determine success, Comparision Test, automatic Success equal to Acting Score, etc. I was thinking to just roll this into the Effect section, but I'm not sure they have to be closely related.  I could concieve of a movement power say, that works as an Outcome Test, dependent on your Success each time, instead of being a default you can move x meters per second or whatever. By same token, you could concievaly have an attack power that works as a comparison test type mechanic. Feel My WRATH mortals, and like everyone in range/area suffers an attack of such an effect. This is sort of how Hazards like fire or poison work, variable damage, but no targeting. You could go farther though and have set damage. Everyone takes PEN:30(1000.0) DMG:30(1000.0) attack against defense, no trying to hit or shit.  )


My Guys Cosmic Energy Blast
----------------------------------------------------------
Property- Value - CF Modifier
TYPE- Physical (Mutant Powers) -               +0 CF
DET - standard Detectability -                    +0 CF
TGT - Object/Individual                             +0 CF
RNG - Ranged ( TS(m.))                             +0 CF
TIME - Half Phase Action -                          +5 CF
MECH - Acting Score - Body: DX                +0 CF
          Opposing Score - Range/Speed       +0 CF
          SDL - Body:DX                              +0 CF
          FDL - OS                                       +0 CF
          AF - PEN/DMG of attack                   +0 CF
EFX - Apply Attack with PEN: TS+3 DMG:TS +0 CF
       against opponents Defenses/Body condition
DTN - Instant                                             +0 CF

So the Total CF would 5 (1.5x Triangular Progression Cost.)

If I bought a Trait Score of 20 for my Attack. It Would have a
Range equal to the number of meters corresponding to a GP Score of 20, which is 100 Meters, a base Accuracy = +10, and the effect would be
apply an Attack with a PEN: 16(40.0) DMG:20(100.0) against an opponent's Physical Defense. I'd make an Outcome Test pitting Body: DX against 10 + 1/2 GP Score (Range+Speed)+SIZE + Mods, the standard ranged attack Opposing Score, damage would be determined on the success of this attack using the PEN/DMG as an Ability Factor/Effect Score as would be explained in the combat section. A Trait Score of 20 would cost

(20 + 1) * (20+2)/2 * (1+ 5/10) = 347 Points. Under the system as presented.


Ok, as another example and to inform some questions. My General Action Effect was basically how to account for "Skills/Attributes". Basically I posit that they allow the character to perform an action of some scope for some effect. The categories were common Skill types I coud think off.

So lets do Archery (The actual Proficiency system will have stacked effects based on scope of ability(I do levels of "specializtion called Skill/specialty/Familiarity, as a crunchy fine detail thing at present.), basically done with some customs limits I will black magic later.)

Archery
----------------------------------------------------------
Property- Value - CF Modifier
TYPE- Physical (Combat/Athletics) -            +0 CF
DET - standard Detectability -                    +0 CF
TGT - Object                                            +0 CF
RNG - No Range (RNG/Acc is based on Prop)-5 CF (this is ability to use bow, which is only in hand.)
TIME - Half Phase Action -                          +5 CF
MECH - AS - Body:DX aptitude + TS           +0 CF
          Opposing Score - Range/Speed       +0 CF
          SDL - Body:DX                              +0 CF
          FDL - OS                                       +0 CF
          AF - PEN/DMG of attack                   +0 CF
EFX - Operation/Use Effect                         +0 CF
        Use bow to make an Attack
        Action, Effects based on Prop of Bow.
DTN - Instant                                            +0 CF

Now additional Limitations would be Requires Bow & Arrows (umm -10 maybe) Enhancment: Effects based on Bow (say +10) or something similar. (Hmm. need more thought on how to do this. All use/Operation Skills would only allow use of a Gadget/Prop with effects dependent on ability. So no Prop, skills is useless, and overall Effect of ability is dependent on Prop.

So it would have Cost Factor 0, so a Proficiency of 7 in it would cost 36 points.

So I'd buy Bow Skill of say 7 (well trained) add it to my
Body: DX Aptitude (1/2 of Body: DX of 12 say) to get acting Score of 13.
How effective attack depends on nature of bow and stuff.

Allright, that is operation of basic system concept. Next post I will answer specific questions and comments.

Thanks.

[RobMuadib]

I'm having trouble following (not certain why triangular progression either), but if I'm getting your question... I assume these all can be made more powerful by increasing the cost, based off the base cost?

Cruciel

Hey, the idea of the triangular progression is to account for the fact that the overall effect increases exponentially with regards to Trait Score derived values. Or in the case of skills/attributes provides a Linear increase in Ability Factor for each step, requiring a non-linear increase in investment to achieve. (Under system, your success is scaled to the Ability Factor you are working with. So someone with a Proficiency of 3 would do some fraction of 3 based on success, approaching 1 times and over at high level. while Someone with a Proficiency of 8 would scale some fraction of 8 based on success. So you get greater effect for equivalent success as your ability goes up.

The costs seem different in your first post than in your second.  For example, Damage Effect and Defensive Effect are both + 5 in the first post, but in the second Damage Effect is + 10.  Depends on how it plays out for you, but I would even them out if not make Defensive Effect the more expensive of the two (grenades are easier to get than the ability to ignore grenades).

This is part of what I am hoping for help with, in coming up with the Effect Template Costs, (They are going to be largely arbritrary.) THe idea is to charge more per point of ability, based on what that Point of ability does. If it only lets you weave baskets (build/repair skill use requiring tools/materials, lots of time) it shouldn't cost that much. While if it lets you materialize 100 baskets out of thin air in the blink of an eye, it should cost more (Creation effect, instant action, Permanent duration, etc.).

I assume these all can be made more powerful by increasing the cost, based off the base cost?  If true, I'd combine Enhancement Movement Effect and Super Movement Effect with some sort of arcane computation to determine to bonus based off level of Movement Effect purchased, seeing as how crunchy doesn't look like something you are trying to avoid.  Movement Effect could then be extended to include teleportation (something missing on the list), with the level determining range/time for teleportation.  I'd also be tempted to keep swimming, flight, tunneling, and other such stuff in Movement Effect, as they just modify the effectiveness of movement.

The reason I broke them down into Enhanced movement/Super movement is because of the movement/physical feats rules I have already put together.  Since I currently determine the majority of your move scores based on derived Stats, with allowances for size, encumbrance, and various other detailed things. It works easiest that way. Though you bring up good point in that I lost Teleport as a simple movement effect since no one has base Teleport. Same problem with Flight mostly. Though I could fudge it a bit by allowing players to buy enhanced movement for move types they don't have (Flight, Teleport) (That's still enhancing your movment right?:) Add X meters to 0 or none:)) Which would mean you buy your base
movement with that, then can super move it if you want to, hmm.)

And...If I'm assuming what Knowledge/Information Effect is correct, I'd make that cost even more than Creation Effect - especially if that Effect can reflect seeing into the past, mind reading or clairvoyance.

Hmm, good point. I consider that simply as a way to make Skill type effects. You have knowledge of baskets. Which is another thing I need to work out. How to represent Skill and attribute type ability. That is what I assumed for General Action Effect, it lets you perform some skill type of ability.

If telekinesis like effects could said to be a Use/Operation Effect at extended range I won't point it out.

Ahh, another good point. I'd consider that more of an adder, kind of like Fine Manipulation for TK in Hero. Like I said, I could use help in how to represent skill and attribute type effects as well as Metability effects. And then coming up with Cost Factor multipliers to represent that.

Thanks

[RobMuadib]

I like what you're doing here. Pretty rough right now, but I see how you're taking all the Hero System mechanics and generalizing them to an even more mechanical extent. I've often thought about doing that myself, and am intrigued by your attempt. For example, all defensive powers like Force field, Force Wall, Armor, Power Defense, etc, are all the same ability just with diferent limitations. It makes sense to treat them this way. And I like that you require most Advantages and Lims to be addressed in the basic profile.

Mike

Hey, thanks for taking the time to sludge through my notes. As I mentioned I am stealing ideas from several games here. The chief inspiration is from S. Isaac Dealey's old Paradigm system. It features a pure define your own ability mechanical system. Basically, it describes it's basic skill roll system. Then defines all abilities, that player chooses, by means of that. Giving each ability it's basic properties of Type, Time, Range, Duration, Difficulty, & Area. Then I mixed ideas from the Power system of Greg Porter's EABA. Which has no templates or individual powers, instead each power is constructed from a number of Modifiers for Damage, Range, Targeting, Effects, Durations, and Limits on User to construct all of it's powers. Then add in ideas from Hero 5th, DC Heroes, Fuzion, Masterbook, D6, and the unique concepts afforded by my game.

That all said, I'm not seeing where Limitations come in. Advantages that don't affect the basic profile?

Limitations is a bit generic. Generally, anything that reduces the Cost factor is considered a Limitiation. In the basic profile that is for having to take extra time, shorter range etc. For like Generic Limitations and such, you simply apply add in a Negative Cost Factor Modifier to get the adjust cost Factor. So if the Cost factor of my base Profile is 0, and I limit it so I can only use it during the night or something, that would be a say -5 CF modifer, So total cost Factor would be -5. Thus final Cost of would be the Triangular cost for that GP Score divided by (1+5/10) or about 2/3rds the cost. Does that answer your question? Any extra profile elements are simplay applied as a Positive CF mod if they enhance ability, or negative if they reduce it. They are simply added together to get actual cost, none of that hero double calculation stuff. OH, and I have decided to 1/10th modifers since it fits the scale of the games granularity. Also, you only use the actual GP Score for adjustment effect, no messing Active point costs or junk.

Your second list of effects seems better. I like that you included the "Modify Traits" one, as this reflects the Hero "adjustment" powers. OTOH, the best way to generalize all this is to consider attacks to be "drains" on abilities like BODY. Thereby rolling attacks and adjustment powers together into a more general mechanical category. After all, they work pretty much identically, don't they?

Well yeah, I am trying to reduce things to there most basic mechanical "Effect Templates", which is what I am hoping for people to offer help on.


As for Damage, well, because of the way I do Physical attacks & damage, I am going to break them out into their own Template. Basically, I rate attacks by Penetration and Damage, have several Damage Types, similar to GURPS, and handle armor somewhat like GURPS in that It has Damage Resistance (Which works against PEN), and Passive Deflection (Which reduces Success Totals in combat. So it's kind of complicated, Here is a brief summary from my notes.

DAMAGE TYPES (DMG TYPE)
Damage is several types, representing the mechanism by which the
attack type affects the target. The DAMAGE Types are listed below.

Damage Type         Example
Impact(IM)    Punches,Kicks,Strikes,Stomps,Tramples,etc
Blunt(BL)      Clubs, Maces,Explosive Concussion
Crushing(CR)   Flails,Morning Stars, Spiked Bats,etc
Cutting(CT)          Most Swords, Knifes, light edged weapons
Chopping(CH)   Axes,Pole arms, Heavy Edged Weapons
Piercing(PC)           Light Pointed Thrusting Weapon(Rapiers,Knifes)
Puncturing(PT)     Heavy Pointed Weapons(Spears, Picks, Lances,etc.)
Ballistic (BC)   High Speed Low Mass Projectiles
Beam (BM) Lasers, Masers, Blasters, Plasma weapons, Particle Beams, etc

I Still need to decide if I am going to mirror the PEN/DMG element for Mental & Psyche Damage as well. I probably will just for symmetry's sake. As I already mirror how the damage conditions work. BUt that brings up the idea of Mental and Psychic Damage types, which would vary in PEN/DMG, "Blunt Trauma", and wounding/damage effects. Hmm, would be flavorful where necessary. Hmm.

On another front, how are you going to handle "Multiple Attack" abilities like autofire. The argument that seems to make the most sense to me in terms of generalization would be to allow for use times to be less than "one phase". That is, instead of saying that you can attack many times on one phase, this would effectively increase your SPD instead. Or something to that effect. It's hard to comment without knowing how initiative works.

I have 2 Initiative Systems, one for basic combat with mapless abstract movement and initiative (somewhere between Hero and Shadowrun), and one for advanced combat that use a "phased semi-simultaneous" Initiative with proportional movement and a map.

Basic system you have a general Combat sense Skill which you determine a dice pool of d05's you roll, using the Add Dice mechanic (mitigated open-ended mechanic.) You also have a Phase time Score, which is how many initiative segments you have to wait between Action Phases (functional 1 second of action) . Each Action Round is 3 seconds. You roll CS at beginning of combat to get Initiative Score. You have your first Action Phase on Initiative Score, then next on Init Score - Phase Time and again minus phase Time if you have enough segments. (Think Shadowrun.) You then get Action Phase which is handled much like in Hero. With the Hero Attack ends your Phase simple rule. (I also have it so Wound Penalties reduce your Init Score, requiring new Initiative Roll, leading to increase possibility of freezing due to confusion, pain, etc. But since it is open-ended is still variable and crazy.)

Advanced system is a pretty direct rip of Phoenix Commands initiative system. Each Action Round of 3 seconds is broken up into 5 0.6 second phases (I liked 5 better than six, so sue me:) ). During each phase you will have a number of Combat Actions to spend determined based on your SPD, modified by your Combat Sense. It works such that you have to have a high combat sense to be able to effectively move and react at your full speed, and you can exceed that relatively beyond that. Each Action Round
you Roll an Init Score which then determines priority using the Low declares first and resolves last. (because of system, you convert CA's to MP, which for most character's are 1 to 1. In case of supers and vehicles and shit, not necssarily the case.)

Well, as for the increase Speed deal, That is what I planned to use for the
SuperSpeed characters. Who Effectively get Multiple Phases. I will probably still use Auto-Fire type advantage for simplicity. I have system to easily resolve such multi-attacks, so not a huge problem. This accounts for the fact that initiative doesn't only represent pure speed, but also levelheadness and cool and experience with that type of fighting. So experienced and trained fighters have an advantage that way. (Yes it's brutal for non-combatant types, but even trained combatants have some chance to freeze, especially with increasing wounds. This is soft kill by reducing you to a casualty despite not necessarily being dead or unconcious. Eventually you are paralyzed into inaction because of pain, fear, etc. so option for psychological "kill" for non-combatant types. While combatant types will generally only casualty out due to real wounds.)

On cost, why the escallating costs? This is going to cause all sorts of problems, especially when you have to consider the idea of the use of multiple powers for attacks. Why buy the "8d" attack for 55, when you can buy 8 "1d" attacks for 24 and use them all at once? Basically the stacking powers rules in Hero Fifth are a breakthrough in the understanding of the costs of multiple powers in terms of their cross effectiveness. Essentially the result is that one can only use a linear scale, or disallow multiple simultaneous power use. The problem with the latter is that makes things like complex spells impossible, not to mention other philosophical problems.

Hmm, I explained a bit in my response to cruciel on how the underlying log scale affects abilities. Would you care to elaborate more on this. The way I see it, a multi-power attack use would be a single "Trait" with more than one associated ability/Effect tied to a single Trait Score. Please explain more as I haven't seen anything in Hero 5th that particular talks about this other than like Linked Power/Trigger.

I'd go back to linear. I'd also challenge you to keep effects linear when possible. Otherwise you'll get the Hero System, exponential to linear problems with things like throwing, damage vs. Def, etc, not to mention the granularity problems. That all said, I'm imagining requiring a spreadsheet to build these abilities.

Hmm, as i have it setup, I believe it works pretty well despite the exponential effects due to the use of the CORE Table and log scale stuff, and the finely detailed 10 points to a factor of 10. As for building the abilities with a spreadsheet. I see them as just putting in the Property options and extra Enhancements and limitations adding up them to get CF, and you should be able to look at handy cost chart to get cost. Should be easier than way Hero does it as I see it.

BTW, I'm hoping that you decide to include all abilities under this system, meaning that there ought not to be any "skills" or "Stats", just this system, which can handle all that if done correctly, IMO. Single system, easy to use in play.

Well, I currently planning on having required Attributes using my Orthogonal Attribute Hierarchiary of Body/Mind/Psyche/ + Power with faceted substats. I am finding myself want to hardcode them to provide for a DC heroes like power/ability division related to meta-types. But not one that necessarily maps as stringently as DC heroes. Also, in addition to BODY Condition, you have Mind and Psyche condition. Allowing for effects of Insanity/Madness fear checks. Psychic wounds, Mental and Psychic damaging attacks, etc. Basically some setting reality I want to fix into the system. but technically the underlying system could be used that way. I mean I am going to use it to set the costs and workings of the Attributes & Skills, even if I am not going to expose those parts of system to tinkering.

Anyway, thanks for your questions and attention. I look forward to reading your answers. I am hoping this will provide a well evolved system of Effect/component based ability creation. I mean, I am stealing from all of the best systems i know off to do it:)

thanks

[Jason Lee]

As I'm leaving for Mexico in 3 hours I don't have much time for a decent response...I'll just comment on what leapt out at me.

I'm having trouble thinking of how you could tie a skill into the same effect used to generate spells (excluding an all bonus/penalty system) as the amount of functionality is quite different.  For stats/skills/etc I'd simply define three levels of scope for skills.  Wide Scope + 25 (stats, like dex), Narrow Scope + 5 (skills, like melee), and Fine Scope + 1 (specific skills, like poleaxe).  Assignment into these categories is going to be sort of eyeballing it no matter what.  I'm of the opinion more than three relative categories is harder to convey to a reader (I had a discussion with someone once, wish I could remember who, and the result was that the trend may simply be how thinking is influenced in western culture; either way...).

DAMAGE TYPES (DMG TYPE)
Damage is several types, representing the mechanism by which the
attack type affects the target. The DAMAGE Types are listed below.

Damage Type         Example
Impact(IM)    Punches,Kicks,Strikes,Stomps,Tramples,etc
Blunt(BL)      Clubs, Maces,Explosive Concussion
Crushing(CR)   Flails,Morning Stars, Spiked Bats,etc
Cutting(CT)          Most Swords, Knifes, light edged weapons
Chopping(CH)   Axes,Pole arms, Heavy Edged Weapons
Piercing(PC)           Light Pointed Thrusting Weapon(Rapiers,Knifes)
Puncturing(PT)     Heavy Pointed Weapons(Spears, Picks, Lances,etc.)
Ballistic (BC)   High Speed Low Mass Projectiles
Beam (BM) Lasers, Masers, Blasters, Plasma weapons, Particle Beams, etc

I Still need to decide if I am going to mirror the PEN/DMG element for Mental & Psyche Damage as well. I probably will just for symmetry's sake. As I already mirror how the damage conditions work. BUt that brings up the idea of Mental and Psychic Damage types, which would vary in PEN/DMG, "Blunt Trauma", and wounding/damage effects. Hmm, would be flavorful where necessary. Hmm.

This is stylistic, but I would personal combine many of these categories because many of the listed weapons could be used in different ways (impact/blunt/crushing and cutting/chopping/piercing/puncturing).  Or, if you don't combine them I would seperate many of the items in Beam; the differences in armor effects for lasers and plasma weapons seems a lot bigger than the differences for cutting and piercing.  You also seem to be missing consuming/burning damage types like heat, cold, electrocution, and corrosive substances/chemical burns.  Also, are you going to resolve toxins (disease/poison) as damage?  Fatigue/Exhaustion (which some toxins might cause)?

I like the idea of Mental and Psychic damage; mental for psionic blasts and such, psychic for going insane (even if the wording seems backwards to me).

[RobMuadib]

As I'm leaving for Mexico in 3 hours I don't have much time for a decent response...I'll just comment on what leapt out at me.

Cruciel

Oooh, sounds like fun, hope you had a good time, and thanks for your comments.

I'm having trouble thinking of how you could tie a skill into the same effect used to generate spells (excluding an all bonus/penalty system) as the amount of functionality is quite different.

So am I, which is why I am looking for input on it. As I conceive of it right now, the concept of an Effect Template is basically what do you do with the Success Result Score. I then cross-referenced this with idea of skill types effects. So, for general action, you can perform an action of some scope with effects based on scale of success. As I defined in my interpreting sucess ratings definitions. This is relative to what you are doing of course.  Then you have special use effects of skill such as Complementary success, where you use success result score to get a bonus to add to second skill use, or a Resistance effect where you reduce the success result score of another character by your success result score.

So I guess in part what I am asking is how to define a Skill in terms of effects, to create a skill effect template, and similar for Attribute. You bring up a good point in your example of magic spells versus skills, such as what is the difference between say a lock-pick skill and a "Knock" spell. Good question.

In terms of effect, there isn't that much difference, they would both let you open a Lock of some difficulty relative to the opposing score or your success result score. Thus they only differ in details.

Of the top of my head, a lock-pick skill would require tools, would have to contend with the Skill of the lock-maker/difficulty of lock as opposing Score (possibly requiring a certain success result score). It would require Outcome Test, would require significant time. A Knock spell could be assumed to be same effect, except that it requires no tools, is instant effect, and could be said to work against any lock of less than or equal to it's Trait Score + 10 difficulty or such as a comparison Test, with a success result score equal to the Trait Score. So the magic is in the details and sweat I guess. I mean how would you do that power in Hero, a minor transform? Or a Skill as Power. Gonna take some more thought on my part I guess. But I think I am gettin there. In that skills would all require Outcome Tests with details based on opposing skill, with varying levels of success, time, tool & other requirements. While "power" skill effects could be done as comparison effects with more powerful and sure effects based on their trait score, without requiring tools or significant time. Basically Leveraging the basic Outcome/Success system ideas and applying a "Super" ability towards them. What do you guys think of that idea?

For stats/skills/etc I'd simply define three levels of scope for skills.  Wide Scope + 25 (stats, like dex), Narrow Scope + 5 (skills, like melee), and Fine Scope + 1 (specific skills, like poleaxe).  Assignment into these categories is going to be sort of eyeballing it no matter what.  I'm of the opinion more than three relative categories is harder to convey to a reader (I had a discussion with someone once, wish I could remember who, and the result was that the trend may simply be how thinking is influenced in western culture; either way...).

I have four levels mostly for the way I do Attributes, skills are done on a 3 level setup. I basically have the super category for Attributes. Which provide ultra broad orthogonal ability. I.e. your Inherent Physical Capability and capacity would be represented by the Body super-attribute.

This is stylistic, but I would personal combine many of these categories because many of the listed weapons could be used in different ways (impact/blunt/crushing and cutting/chopping/piercing/puncturing).  Or, if you don't combine them I would seperate many of the items in Beam; the differences in armor effects for lasers and plasma weapons seems a lot bigger than the differences for cutting and piercing.  You also seem to be missing consuming/burning damage types like heat, cold, electrocution, and corrosive substances/chemical burns.  Also, are you going to resolve toxins (disease/poison) as damage?  Fatigue/Exhaustion (which some toxins might cause)?

Well, this stuff is from my notes, and subject to change. Basically I created the overly detailed types (the damage types examples are single instance examples, with many weapons being able to employ two or more modes.) The damage types were setup to provide some additional modeling that may be better dropped. Specifically, I have a "Passive Defense" rating for armor, which basically represents it's ability to deflect blows. With the blunt damage types being less affected by it and the lighter piercing and cutting types being more affected by it. The damage type also affects the "Blunt Trauma" number which basically rates how likely the blow is to cause blunt trauma effects even if it doesn't penetrate armor. Due the nature of the damage, so Blunt and Ballistic damage are more likely to cause blunt trauma while cutting is less likely, also they convert to different damage types, usually crushing or blunt. Finally the actual damage types have different damage modifiers for damage that bypassess armor for living targets.

Basically, I provided an overdetailed wankfest of damage types that differ in three different characteristics based on their mechanisms. Passive Defense Susceptibility, Blunt Trauma likelihood, and Tissue Damage modifier. I may move that stuff to optional detail rules.

The Burn and poison types weren't listed since they typically don't work against armor types which is what I was dealing with when I wrote up list. And yeah, I can have poison types that work against Fatigue instead of Body condition. Again, more stuff I need to work out and include under an effect template.

I like the idea of Mental and Psychic damage; mental for psionic blasts and such, psychic for going insane (even if the wording seems backwards to me).

The wording is a bit silly yeah, because I have a mental damage condition called MIND, and a Spiritual/empathic condition called Psyche.  Also, as I concieved of it, you can go Insane, which represents a sort of dry, detached loss of ability to intellectually relate to reality (delusional/psychotic), or you can go Mad, resulting in a fiery emotional unwillingness to accept some reality or such (mad women in attic). Though the effects are very similar. Which is the analogue to a character going unconscious due to physical damage.  

With the "Death" analogue results being much the same, the person is totally withdrawn/destroyed emotionally or intellectually. I suppose having different Mental/Empathic damage types would be cool, if they differ in Penetration & Dmg, similar to the way I have damage. Then you could have character's with vulnerabilities to particular flavors of the different damage types, as well as immunities and resistances. More stuff to work out.

Anyway, thanks for your comments. I will be posting some updates stuff here soon with more details I have worked up. (Probably a link to a document of the system as It is getting kind of hefty at this point.)

Thanks for your interest

Best

[Mike Holmes]

I think this is key:

In terms of effect, there isn't that much difference, they would both let you open a Lock of some difficulty relative to the opposing score or your success result score. Thus they only differ in details.

I'd only have them differ at all in the description, and in the specific application chosen. Much like you describe, though, some versions of the knock spell might just require a standard contested roll. If this is an Effects First design, then there really is no difference between skills and spells other than the mechanics that you choose to simulate them. So I don't see any need for an artificial division between them. They ought to all be one thing designed under one system. Yes, your examples can show how skills should tend to, say, take more time, and the like. But that's no different from saying that a magic ritual should take more time than a quick spell. All of these should be things that you can create from the same ruleset.

In terms of the armor/damage thing, it makes sense to me that you try to extend these ideas into more universal concepts. It seems that "PD" is just an augment to the resistance roll to avoid being hit. The damage reduction ability is just the stat you roll to avoid the energy inflicted from becoming actual wounds. So maybe you'd roll the armor's rating augmented by the character's toughness (or whatever), or vice versa.

That makes the concept more expandable. A Belief "Skill" or ability, or a Philosophy ability might be usable as "Mental PD" or something to augment resistance to mental damage, for instance. See what I'm getting at? Expand the basic principles so that they cover everything.

I'd also like to see nothing be "required" per se. That is, Stats, to me, are just other abilities that most systems require. Ever notice, however, how in Hero System, a vehicle is just a character with less stats? Allow everything to be built off this one simple system. Then, instead of Stats, have suggestions in the example material of how to build, say, a person.

Also, if you can make it so that non-delineated areas are at a basic "default" that would make the game much simpler. That is, if all a player has to do to define something is to state how it's exceptional, then the work of creating the thing, be it a wall or a person, is much much easier.

Just some thoughts.

Mike

[Jason Lee]

Oooh, sounds like fun, hope you had a good time, and thanks for your comments.

NP. Yes, it was quite fun.  The only sour parts were the return fight delay on account of tropical storm and the US immigration lady pissing me off something fierce.  If a cynic like me can only complain about the ride home - I think it went pretty good.

*****

So I guess in part what I am asking is how to define a Skill in terms of effects, to create a skill effect template, and similar for Attribute. You bring up a good point in your example of magic spells versus skills, such as what is the difference between say a lock-pick skill and a "Knock" spell. Good question.

In terms of effect, there isn't that much difference, they would both let you open a Lock of some difficulty relative to the opposing score or your success result score. Thus they only differ in details.

So, I got to here and I said to myself "Self, I have a clever idea."  I kept reading and it looks like you had the same idea...but, I'll say it anyway.

You could simply ditch Effect and replace it with scope, which effects how widely the trait in question applies (category/stat/skill/specialization).  Instead of modelling effects, just modify effect abilities.  You may already have all the bits and pieces you need in the other metatypes.

For example:

Skill: Lockpicking
Layer 3 scope
Modifiers: None

Spell: Knock
Layer 3 scope
Modifiers:  LoS range, no focus (tool) required, instant result

You could instead model the Lockpicking skill modified as: range touch, focus required, moderate speed result; but, I would make stats/skills the norm just for ease of use.

What do you guys think of that idea?

Heh, I guess I like it.

*****

Basically, I provided an overdetailed wankfest of damage types that differ in three different characteristics based on their mechanisms. Passive Defense Susceptibility, Blunt Trauma likelihood, and Tissue Damage modifier. I may move that stuff to optional detail rules.

Nothing wrong with a highly detailed damage system.  I was just observing an inconsistency in the types presented.

I've been chewing on a modification to our damage system that might apply here.  I'm currently tossed up on whether I want things simple with just one damage/armor type or a tiered system.  We are pushing for a wide range of build-your-own-critter support, and I like detail, so I'm leaning towards the tiered system.  Let me explain, maybe you'll see something you can use.

The tiered system I've been think of goes like this (physical types only, I haven't gotten into the idea very deeply yet) :

Impact | ballistic/explosive/etc, piercing/cutting/etc, crushing/smashing/etc | tier 3
Energy | temperature, electricity, radiation/light | tier 3
Chemical | poison, disease, corrosive/acid/base | tier 3

The second tier isn't a definitive list, and the third tier is open ended for player specification.  Tier 3 is the place stuff like fire and silver damage would reside.

Each tier encompasses everything below it in terms of functionality. Impact armor applies to all impact sources, unless a weakness is specified to something in a lower tier.  The theory being that you only need to define as narrowly as you desire.  If you want detail and want to have beta radiation armor, bully for you.  If you want simple and just want physical armor (tier 0, I guess), bully for you too.  More importantly, you can have both work in the same game.

Anyway, I found my idea very similar to the way some of your system works (it even has four tiers).  So, I present it as food for thought.

[RobMuadib]

I think this is key:

In terms of effect, there isn't that much difference, they would both let you open a Lock of some difficulty relative to the opposing score or your success result score. Thus they only differ in details.

I'd only have them differ at all in the description, and in the specific application chosen. Much like you describe, though, some versions of the knock spell might just require a standard contested roll. If this is an Effects First design, then there really is no difference between skills and spells other than the mechanics that you choose to simulate them. So I don't see any need for an artificial division between them. They ought to all be one thing designed under one system. Yes, your examples can show how skills should tend to, say, take more time, and the like. But that's no different from saying that a magic ritual should take more time than a quick spell. All of these should be things that you can create from the same ruleset.

Mike

I am getting pretty close to that style now. Basically, I see the two most important Ability Characteristics as being the Mechanics Ability Characterisitic, and the Effects Ability Characteristic.

At present, with the Mechanics Ability Characteristic, the person creating the Trait/Ability chooses from one of three mechanics types depending on the range of success and results that occur when using the ability. Specifically, you can have an ability that has Variable Success and Variable Results, or an ability with Fixed Success and Fixed Results, or an ability with Fixed Success and Variable Results. The use of the ability would then be resolved with an Outcome Test, Comparison Test, or Ratings Test respectively. (The idea of an ability with Fixed Failure is kind of stupid, since you effectively could never use it:) ).

With the Effects ability Characteristic, the person creating the Trait/Ability chooses the actual Mechanical Effects of the ability. By default, for most Attributes and Proficiency type traits, this simply lets the player complete some act with a varying degree of success that is interpreted relative to what was being attempted. Which is basically what the standard resolution roll of most games does. Or you can have specific effects, like a Knowledge Effect, an Perception/Analysis result, a Prop Use/Operation Result, a Maintain/Repair/Modify/Build/Design Effect, etc. Or you can have a Complementary Action Effect, adding effect to another roll, Enabling Action Effect, Resistance Action Effect, etc. Or you can have stuff like Knack Effect, that decreases the Cost Factor of Proficiencies you have Knack For, and Increases Skill Cap, Talent Effect that lets you add to your Test Total and Success Total, etc. Then you have your Power Type effects after that, etc.

In terms of the armor/damage thing, it makes sense to me that you try to extend these ideas into more universal concepts. It seems that "PD" is just an augment to the resistance roll to avoid being hit. The damage reduction ability is just the stat you roll to avoid the energy inflicted from becoming actual wounds. So maybe you'd roll the armor's rating augmented by the character's toughness (or whatever), or vice versa.

That makes the concept more expandable. A Belief "Skill" or ability, or a Philosophy ability might be usable as "Mental PD" or something to augment resistance to mental damage, for instance. See what I'm getting at? Expand the basic principles so that they cover everything.

Will attempt to do that with my Effect Templates. Which will basically say how you use the Success Result Score. So you can have effect templates that let you affect the resolution mechanic at different intervals and such. As for rolling, I don't really do any Soak Type stuff (except for Parries), that stuff is handled statically based on character's Attributes and such, to cut down on rolling. Of course you could have abilities that provide a Result Score that is determined randomly to be applied into the damage mechanic.

Also I am considering having the Attack Mechanic letting you set the PEN, DMG, PD Mod, Blunt Trauma Number, and Damage Mod independently. So I can have my "real" damage types, plus players can design Attacks that behave differently.  

I'd also like to see nothing be "required" per se. That is, Stats, to me, are just other abilities that most systems require. Ever notice, however, how in Hero System, a vehicle is just a character with less stats? Allow everything to be built off this one simple system. Then, instead of Stats, have suggestions in the example material of how to build, say, a person.

I am somewhat doing this, but in order for the system to work they way I want it to in terms of supporting all the Ability Effects I want, Personae are assumed to have a Default ability in a Body, Mind, & Psyche Super-Attribute, which are given a Trait Score of 10. This is to hang other elements of the Effects system off, somewhat similar to the construction of DC heroes system. However, due to my Hierarchy Scheme with it's use most specific attribute and Inherited Defaults rule, it could be possible for players to specify there own Tiered Attributes, though I already have a detailed scheme setup. I am thinking I could concievably provide some level of "Roll your Own" attributes into the system, ala Fudge. Basically they could cover what elements of the Super-Attribute are represented, and what part of the Hiearchy they fall into, and thus What Proficiencies they affect. the question is is this really useful compared to me providing my particular setup.

Also, I don' want this system to be totally Effects first. That is, part of the way my resolution mechanic assumes some relationship between inherent ability as represented by Attributes and learned ability as represented by Proficiencies. Or more exactly, requires some Trait Score control The Success Dice Limit (typically representing effect of inherent talent), and that your Acting Score in use of a Learned ability is equal to the sum of your Attribute derived Aptitude, plus your Proficiency, and that it is your Proficiency is used as the Ability Factor and is scaled by results of Success Total. Oh, and the Idea that your Maximum Proficiency is limited by your Attribute Ratings. However, I mess with this somewhat in the way effects of certain Props are handled through subsitutions, or with the idea of Prerequisities, where Acting Score of some other skill is treated as Attribute for that purpose.

One idea I had, sparked by a comment by Peter Knutsen in RPG-Create, is where he talked about how an Effects based system doesn't care about means. However, I could basically create a custom set of Limitations for Proficiencies that impose these Limits and requirements I described above. So you could have a Skill that is unrelated to Attributes, but it would have a higher Cost Factor due to lack of the Attribute derived Limitations, but with advantage of not being bound by those limits. While Traditional Proficiency has an Acting Score equal to Aptitude + Proficiency (Aptitude is gained from Attribute Trait ability), Ability Factor based on Proficiency, Success Dice Limit based on "governing Attribute/attributes" Also the Max Proficiency idea could be vary among Proficiencies provided by varying Cost Factors,(I.e. we worry whether it Enhances of Limits Proficiency)  Its an idea.

Also, if you can make it so that non-delineated areas are at a basic "default" that would make the game much simpler. That is, if all a player has to do to define something is to state how it's exceptional, then the work of creating the thing, be it a wall or a person, is much much easier.

Good Point, gonna try and make that as much as part of system as possible, Will have to see how that meets with my desire for simulationist detail or least verisimilitude.

Thanks for your comments.