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275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4285 Members Latest Member: - Jason DAngelo Most online today: 179 - most online ever: 429 (November 03, 2007, 04:35:43 AM)
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Author Topic: Humanity as Moral Gauge?  (Read 10006 times)
greyorm
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My name is Raven.


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« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2003, 03:53:47 PM »

You can have a Humanity score of "1" and still be an ideal Saint.
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Rev. Ravenscrye Grey Daegmorgan
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2003, 07:43:57 PM »

Quote from: greyorm
You can have a Humanity score of "1" and still be an ideal Saint.


Yes, depending. Humanity gauges where you've been, but not neccesarily where you currently are, right? So can a person who's done horrible things that reduce humanity be a saint? I'd think not, but by many accounts Paul did some awful stuff before his conversion and "change." Did his humanity score change much between the "before" and the "after" of his vision? My guess is not. But it did go up after that.

Jake
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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Michael S. Miller
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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2003, 03:38:35 AM »

Quote from: greyorm
You can have a Humanity score of "1" and still be an ideal Saint.


All I meant in my example by saying "Humanity drops to 1" is that the imaginary audience is as close as they can get to walking out, without actually walking out. They are teetering on the edge of that cliff that Ben Morgan described--that cliff when the story is just plain over. When nobody cares about the protagonist anymore.
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Ron Edwards
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2003, 08:12:39 AM »

Hello,

Jake, I think Raven's point stands if you change the word "be" to "become." I think he's using "be" to indicate "what the player does with the character next," rather than as a static description of the character.

Best,
Ron
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2003, 09:47:31 AM »

Ron, etc-

Yeah, that's what I was confirming.

The funny thing about this thread is that I just figured out this aspect of Humanity myself (I've been reading "soul." Again.) and I wanted to bring it up...then lo and behold, someone else did. Cool. Anyway this one issue is the most important part of sorcerer play for me, and it bodes well that we'll be playing sorcerer as soon as I can find players that can handle it.

Jake
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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greyorm
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My name is Raven.


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« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2003, 01:11:40 PM »

Darn, thought it was imminently graspable. I'll expound:

What I meant with the quip was to explain that I could start Mother Teresa off as a character with a Humanity of 1. Point being: it doesn't matter what her Humanity score is...she's still Mother Teresa.

However, I must add the caveat: until and unless her score hits 0 or she commits some vile action calling for a Humanity check. The reason I include the latter is because one cannot be an ideal Saint (ie: Immaculate) if one has sinned.

Hence the point of saying that Mother Teresa starts as a Saint, yet has "only" a Humanity of 1.

Note: I'm not trying to make a new point or reveal some vastly interesting new take or concept, only provide an example of what has already been explained by others.
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Rev. Ravenscrye Grey Daegmorgan
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2003, 01:32:28 PM »

Ah, okay, I see it. Cool.

Jake
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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Akos Szederjei
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« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2003, 03:09:41 PM »

This thread is the ultimate "Humanity for beginners" thread. This "binary switch" explonation is really good.

Akos
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Ben Lehman
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« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2003, 06:25:00 PM »

Quote from: Akos Szederjei
This thread is the ultimate "Humanity for beginners" thread. This "binary switch" explonation is really good.


*coughs*
Except, umm...
I really hate to do this, again.
It isn't a binary.  It's a scale.

It is a behavioral binary, at least as described in this thread (actual interpretation, of course, depends on the game blend in question).  Your humanity score in no way effects your character's choices.  But it does effect his actions, because humanity is not a systematic binary.  Diced humanity checks (based on humanity score) and humanity drag (on summoning) are fundamental parts of the system.

It IS a great "humanity for beginners" thread.
Everyone, thank you for your replies.  I have a much greater sense of what the game does and doesn't do, and what summoning means, etc. (although I wish more explanation had been in the basic rules.)

yrs--
--Ben (Working now in Sorcerer version of the 1960s art scene...)

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Valamir
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« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2003, 07:53:56 PM »

Quote
*coughs*
Except, umm...
I really hate to do this, again.
It isn't a binary.  It's a scale.


You're missing the key.

Take a Jenga tower.  The tower at all times is in one of only two possible game states.  It is either standing, in which case the game continues; or it has fallen, in which case the game ends.

There are only these two states...standing or fallen.

Now as the game progresses, blocks are removed, and as each block is removed the tower gets closer and closer to falling.  But as long as it has not actually fallen...it is standing.  The rules of Jenga do not change based on how close to toppling over the tower is.  If it is standing at all, it is standing period.

Does your behavior as a player change, sure.  You might get more cautious, or more aggressive depending on your perception of how close to falling the tower is.  Removing blocks safely becomes much harder to do.

Same exact thing with humanity.  It is either positive, or not positive.  Standing or fallen.  Period.  Your behavior as a player might change depeding on your perception of how close to falling the character is.  Performing certain Sorcerous acts becomes much harder to do.

There is no scale.  There are two seperate measurements going on.  The binary on and off, and the distance to off.  They are seperate measures, not a scale.
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Ben Lehman
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« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2003, 08:04:27 PM »

Quote from: Valamir
You're missing the key. *snip very nice example*


Right.
But that's not what I'm talking about.
I am talking about the effects of humanity within the game system.  Within the game system, as you approach 0 humanity, it becomes easier to summon demons, and harder to roll Humanity as a bonus stat (as described in Sorcerer's Soul.)
This is a qualitative scalar effect of humanity on Sorcerer play.
Thus, in Sorcerer as written, humanity is not entirely a binary.  Clear?

yrs--
--Ben
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Ron Edwards
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« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2003, 08:09:04 PM »

Hi Ben,

Yup. I agree. Reconciling the metagame and in-game roles of Humanity is the deliberate creative constraint buried in the Sorcerer rules.

As for explanations, this thread prompted me to review the first chapter of The Sorcerer's Soul. As far as I can tell, all the issues raised here are addressed there.

Best,
Ron
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Valamir
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« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2003, 04:26:40 AM »

Quote

Right.
But that's not what I'm talking about.
I am talking about the effects of humanity within the game system.  Within the game system, as you approach 0 humanity, it becomes easier to summon demons, and harder to roll Humanity as a bonus stat (as described in Sorcerer's Soul.)
This is a qualitative scalar effect of humanity on Sorcerer play.
Thus, in Sorcerer as written, humanity is not entirely a binary.  Clear?


Quite.  Which is why I closed with

Quote
Your behavior as a player might change depeding on your perception of how close to falling the character is. Performing certain Sorcerous acts becomes much harder to do.

There is no scale. There are two seperate measurements going on. The binary on and off, and the distance to off. They are seperate measures, not a scale.
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Mike Holmes
Acts of Evil Playtesters
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Posts: 10459


« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2003, 07:04:52 AM »

Quote
(Working now in Sorcerer version of the 1960s art scene...)


Could you post the basic details (maybe in a new thread)? When you say 60s art scene, I'm getting a vision of Warhol, Lou Reed, and Heroin. Am I on the right track?

Mike
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