Hero Wars in Tzaa

[Yasha]

Our Thursday Night Group has grown into Ultimate Gamer Assembly X, currently a group with seven players -- soon to expand to eight or nine, I hear.  Because of the number of players, we are currently holding two simultaneous 3-session mini-campaigns, after which we'll shuffle players into two new games, etc.  The Danger Patrol playtest, with four players, is one of the games and the other is non-Gloranthan Hero Wars with three players.  We've played two sessions of Hero Wars so far.

Johnzo is the GM and he is using his setting of Tzaa, an island city state in a vast Mediterranean-like sea.  Tzaa was once a great city, the seat of the god of law who facilitated the magically enforcable contracts used by traders and diplomats from around the world.  Now it's cursed and decaying, surrounded by a barrier of still air and treacherous kelp so that only a few brave or misguided individuals can reach it.

Mark and I were invited to create any type of fantasy characters we wanted, as the island and the surrounding sea contain numerous cultures and races.  He provided more detailed guidelines and suggestions after we created our characters, which helped us fit our characters into the setting.

Mark's character is Qfwfq (KWAHF-kick), a hunter from the high mountains who had been magically imprisoned underground beneath a boulder for 370 years, until he was rescued by an enormous bird named Gtrq (GRRT-kick).  Gtrq is now his companion, and provided transportation for Qfwfq to the island.  Qfwfq seeks revenge on the person who imprisoned him, but he had entered into a contract with this person which may still be in effect.  He is in Tzaa to see if he may break his oath so that he may carry out his vengeance.  He has supernatural powers of calmness that he is just starting to discover within himself.

My character is Arvo, a reindeer nomad from a Lapplandish island up north.  He is prince of the ruling clan.  His father had been king, but a visiting wizard made off with the sacred Reins of Urgency and Horn of Astonishment.  Arvo and his reindeer have been in pursuit of this wizard, who sailed off with his tree-giant  comrade in a sailing ship built on top of a giant turtle.  Arvo is not the only pursuer; the champion of a rival clan is also trying to retrieve the Reins and the Horn, so that he may return with them and be crowned king.  Arvo has a magic obsidian sword that can burn and flow as does lava.

I started listing Arvo's abilities before the first session and Mark worked on them with Johnzo at the beginning of the session.  Because we weren't using Glorantha as a setting, we didn't use predefined keywords.  We ended up using different approaches.  I used fairly specific abilities for my character because I was trying to capture distinct aspects of his culture and I wanted to place limitations on him.  Except for fighting, Arvo doesn't do a lot of physical exertion when his reindeer Junnuku can do it faster and better.  Mark is using more generalized skills, which are being defined in play.  We used the standard target numbers for starting characters by deciding what abilities were cultural and which were professional.

(more to follow)

[Yasha]

(continued...)

Because Mark and I had provided a lot of backstory, and had posted it to our group's mailing list before the first session, Johnzo was able to use it to help generate npcs and situations.

During the first session, we used only simple contests.  Our PCs met when Qfwfq's giant bird was hunting the reindeer steed of Arvo's rival. Simple contests involved abilities such as archery, reindeer husbandry and calming presence.  We didn't use a lot of mechanics during this session because much of the time was spent in discussions and introductions between the two PCs and discussions with the two NPCs (the Zoologist, a non-human zookeeper who's a single being made up of two small humanoids who take turns riding on each others shoulders, and Arvo's rival Davri from the home island).  Both Arvo and Davri were interested in using Qfwfq's bird to fly out to where the wizard Visserak's ship was stuck in kelp.  On top of this, Davri had possession of an item stolen from the wizard, which contained an image of someone from Qfwfq's remote past.  Qfwfq's sympathies were town between the two reindeer herders, but it ultimately came down to who treated their animal better and who the bird liked more.  Grtq the bird really liked Arvo (I think this is where Arvo's Calming Presence or Calm ability came into play) -- so much that she regurgitated lovingly and enormously at his feet.

The first session ended with a flight upon the bird's back, out to the abandoned and corpse strewn turtle-ship.  Arvo's sword burned a hole in the deck so that the two PCs could look down into the sterncastle.  Qfwfq found more items of his long-long lost love in the sterncastle and Arvo entered the hold where he found a corpse-like figure who exhaled a blast of frost.  Then the corpses on deck came alive as clattering skeletons...  We decided to end for the evening because we were moving into an extended contest.

We liked the character creation process because of the free rein we were given to create abilities.  I don't remember the abilities for Mark's character too well, but my PC has abilities such as Let Reindeer Provide the Muscle, Know Whom to Ask and More Civilized Than He Looks.  Mark really appreciates the ability to do some design-in-play, including having a magic ability that will be defined over time.

I think I was apprehensive about not having keywords to build a character from, but in this case it was quite easy to choose abilities that define the characters homeland, profession, contacts and unique characteristics -- this was in a way like Everway where we are playing outsiders from whatever place we care to make up.  I see the value in having keywords for settings such as Glorantha, so that players can quickly attune themselves to a shared culture within which their characters act.

The simple contest mechanism was fairly easy to grasp and use.

When playing, I kept thinking about all the abilities I should have chosen.  How would Arvo swim or run away fast?  The default target of 6 seems quite pitiful, and I kept seeing holes where the default would come into play.  I want a chance to play a Gloranthan PC to see how many deficiencies he or she would have.

(Next, session 2: Extended contests)

[Yasha]

We started the second session where we left off, at the start of a fight onboard ship with skeletons and the detachable, spine-dangling flying head that breathes frost.  This gave us a chance to use Hero War's extended contest mechanics, where we would bid action points every time our PC took an action.

In the fight, both characters had opportunities to use abilities other than their primary fighting ability.  Mark's PC got a lot of use out of a mountaineering ability while climbing over cargo in the hold.  We were given a suggestion for an average bid, but I was quite reckless (even though my sword gave my PC quite an edge).  I unnecessarily made an enormous bid for an action in which I rolled a fumble, resulting in a loss of three times the bid.  Even spending both of my hero points, I could only decrease the loss to one times the bid, which sent me into defeat territory.  I tried a final action to raise my action points into the positive (a Calm roll for Arvo to calmly extinguish the fire engulfing his legs) but again there was a terrible roll, which put Arvo near crispy death.  Only Qfwfq's magic (calm to soothe the raging flames), at the expense of his hero point, was able to save Arvo.

It seemed fairly easy for us to connect the bids and the gains and loss of action points to our actions and to the results.  Johnzo wanted us to narrate results when we wished, but he also wanted to narrate quite a lot himself -- I think we worked this out pretty well.  

Mark and I are a little hazy on some of the mechanics, especially lending APs, final actions and wounds, but we enjoyed the way the extended contest worked.  It just seemed quite risky to make a bold bid because of the possible multiplied losses.

We ended back at the home of the Zoologist, where Arvo was recuperating and Qfwfq was wondering what he had gotten himself into.  The tree-bark giant, magically disguised as one of the Zoologist's tiny servants, attempted to assasinate Arvo with poisoned medicinal droplets.  This lead to a second fight, with Qfwfq firing arrows from across the room and Arvo charging across the room on his reindeer (with copper-tined antlers).  Again, the extended conflict lead to disaster as both PCs ended up defeated on the floor, with only the reindeer to save the day.

Both Mark and I need to work on our action point bidding.

[Hafaza]

A really excellent summary James. I will just add a couple of notes.

...I started listing Arvo's abilities before the first session and Mark worked on them with Johnzo at the beginning of the session...  Mark is using more generalized skills, which are being defined in play... We liked the character creation process because of the free rein we were given to create abilities... Mark really appreciates the ability to do some design-in-play, including having a magic ability that will be defined over time...

I always have a hard time with character creation, especially with the creation of abilities in those games that require many of them. Consequently I have become a big fan of the organic method of character creation. I like to define a few very broad abilities and then just derive the skills needed from them at the time they are needed. This relieves the pressure from having to have to think up every possible nuance of a character before the first die is rolled. If my character needs to seduce a character in game but has no seduction ability, we just derive it by saying since he is known as a solitary hunter it is a good bet that his seduction skills suck. Give him a 6 or less. I like that flexibility to make that stuff up on the fly.

...We were given a suggestion for an average bid, but I was quite reckless...

The bidding mechanic is nice, but the resolution seems awkward. After going through three encounters I have come up with the idea that one must error on the conservative side. In the third contest Qfwfq lasted two rounds, even with not being at all crazy with bidding. Well, the climb up the giants back using the mountaineering skill and the attempt to cram the poison into his mouth (the poison the giant had attempted to kill Arvo with) was perhaps a bit brash, hehe. Ok, perhaps I am wrong here. Still it seems that it is better to bid up action incrementally instead of going over board to begin with.

...Both Mark and I need to work on our action point bidding...

Yep. Guess that will come with more familiarization with the combat mechanic.

[Mike Holmes]

Hello gents and welcome. I'm glad to see some more people applying HW to worlds other than Glorantha.

On your notes about having defaults that don't leave glaring holes, this is what Keywords are for. Your character's a Sailor by occupation? Then of course he can swim using the Sailor keyword. He's a Scout? Then he can run quickly.

Consider, too, that even if you do have to default to a 6, that this is merely an "average" level of ability with Running. That is, anyone else who isn't particularly good at Running will have the same Ability level. How do you get slow people then? With flaws like "Slow Runner" etc. So there are no "holes" ever. You just have to have the right perspective.

When I did up the PCs for my game, we actually did work up the Keywords. This had several bonuses. It not only fleshed out the characters appropriately, but it also said things about the cultures that the characters come from, and the occupations that they have. Not to mention the magical abilities that they have, which we shoehorned into models similar to (but with unique differences from) the Gloranthan models.

You've taken on a challenge in that in not using Glorantha, you've chucked exactly the sort of support that you're looking for in terms of "Organic" chargen. That is, the books are full of Keywords. Just choose three, bump a few stats, and you're off and running. That said, I think the course you've chosen is fun, and I think you'll find it rewarding.


On the subject of Extended Contests, there are some good suggestions in the book on tactics. Keep in mind that sometimes it's just the rolls that put you down. One thing to keep in mind as you use the system is that by controlling your bidding, you can control the negative outcomes of an extended contest. If you bid small at the end, then PCs will not die (but may be more likely to lose in some cases). If you go big when you're low, it's very dramatic, but only bid big enough to possibly die if it would be cool in that situation to die. Otherwise, just get yourself Dazed, and then the baddies can capture you or somesuch leading to all sorts of new adventures. The GM should think that way, too. He ought not press an advantage with a bid to kill unless it's suitably dramatic. In this way the participants have dramatic control over character death. Oh, you'll still lose some fights, but you'll live to fight again another day.

Another thing that you ought to have done in your example, was to have the Reindeer lend you AP (it would seem that he was left to defend you afterwards, when he could have been involved, I assume). The other big thing is stretching your mind to figure out ways to augment your Scores, and using the good traits in the right situation. Many players will assume that the only response to a guy charging with a sword is to counter with your own weapon. But if you're a silver-tongued Bard, change the Conflict into a contest of Wits by using your "Quick Witted 5w1" instead.

If you can't defeat them that way, and it devolves into a fight, remember to use that Quick Witted to augment by insulting your opponent. With creativity, you can bring to bear many Abilities in an Extended Contest that you might not even think about with another system.

Mike

[Yasha]

Mike, am I misreading the HeroWars rules?  I thought that the keywords were just packages of abilities without a target number of their own, and that after character creation, the associated abilities would then advance independently from one another.

However, I do like the idea that the profession keyword work like the cover attribute in Sorceror, covering all the skills and abilities one would associate with that career.  We're actually doing it both ways: between the two players, Mark is using a single profession keyword (Hunter) for his PC while my PC's abilities are all broken down for his profession (Noble Warrior).  I'm not too concerned about the difference of approach, especially because we're only going three sessions at the moment.

I've gone back and read through the section on extended contests now that we've actually played through a couple.  (It makes so much more sense now.)  I don't think we've been using the follower rules as written, so I will bring that up before the next session.  In the mean time, I'm going to think of more ways to use my PC's abilities to augment other abilities.

James "Yasha" Cunningham

[johnzo]

Yeah, we did the follower thing wrong.  Junnuku (the reindeer) should've added AP's to Arvo (Yasha's character) for the whole fight, which would've changed things pretty substantially, both from a game-mechanic standpoint and a narrative standpoint.  It would've subsumed Junnuku's part into Arvo's, so whenever Yasha rolled, we would've had to narrate the results for both Arvo and Junnuku.

I really really like Hero Wars.  It's the fantasy game I've been looking for.  I think its bid mechanic does an excellent job of supporting narrativist play.  I need to find some different opportunities to use those mechanics; so far, it's been all about the fighting.  Since we're in a short run, I've been concentrating on combat and adventure rather than relationship-building, although the Grtq / Arvo relationship's pretty interesting.

There's only one part that messes me up, and that's the augmentation rules.  Augmentation is a complicated thing, involving two gamist decisions (go for target number or edge enhancement, and then, how big a bonus?) and I'm not sure how to map those choices into narration, especially the type of bonus decision.  What narration happens if Arvo uses his magic sword for a target number augment instead of an edge augment?  What happens when the silvertongued guy opts for an edge augment rather than a target number one?  I dunno.  The bid mechanic directly correlates to the amount of risk the character is managing, but the choice of augmentation methods doesn't seem to relate to anything.  I was thinking that perhaps Arvo's magic sword has two modes -- one, where it's snaky and quick and gets a target number bonus, another where it's just a big goopy blade of lava that has an edge.   But I'm not sure about how I'd differentiate Mr. Silvertongue's two augment modes.  To remedy this, I was thinking that all augmentation during extended contests would be edges, and for other contests, would be target number, but this robs the players of a tactical option, so that's probably not a good idea.

I also ruled that augmentation costs an unrelated action and is good for the duration of a contest mostly because I just like narrating big flashy anime-ish "summoning chi / power / inner strength / whatever" scenes.  But I think I might change that too, given the silver-tongued example of Mike's.

Because Mark and I had provided a lot of backstory, and had posted it to our group's mailing list before the first session, Johnzo was able to use it to help generate npcs and situations.

This was terrific.  The entire adventure built itself around these guys' ideas.  This is the easiest adventure design I've ever done.

this was in a way like Everway where we are playing outsiders from whatever place we care to make up. I see the value in having keywords for settings such as Glorantha, so that players can quickly attune themselves to a shared culture within which their characters act.

I love this type of character design and the flexibility it brings (although it usually requires careful work to bring everyone together in a satisfying and non-stupid way.)  I was thinking of doing Glorantha, but I was wary of all the player-education I'd have to do in order to get characters built.  "Um, you see, there's this god named Orlanth, and his people like freedom, and a lunar goddess whom's all about organization...and here's all the keywords for them, and for this other group..."  Then I thought about doing a keyword list for Tzaa, and I was afraid of the work, so I went with a run-what-you-brung kinda attitude.  Also, in my experience, the more background a player brings to the table, the more engaged the player is by the game.  So I'm a big fan of GM subcontracting.

but again there was a terrible roll

Stupid flat distributions.  I wonder what Hero Wars would be like with 3d6?

It just seemed quite risky to make a bold bid because of the possible multiplied losses

I think that the key to forcing players to consider higher bids is to add a ticking clock to the mix.  You not only have to deal with this challenge, but you have to deal with it before Something Awful happens.

[Blake Hutchins]

Hey Johnzo,

Welcome to the Forge.  Good to hear another example of non-Glorantha HW play.  I've tinkered with adapting Exalted to HW, and I think I've gotten the rules stuff figured out, but there's a lot of work - and we still have to deal with player education about setting.

I'm interested in your comment about the distribution curve.  How would you see crits/fumbles marked out under a 3d6 scheme?

Best,

Blake

[Hafaza]

The Forge Forums are such a great resource for new RP gamers like me and I would just like to nod my head in acknowledgement. I am trying to improve my gaming and all these comments help a good deal.

I am constantly trying to overcome a handicap that I have, one that becomes more apparent when I become immersed in content with "experienced" RP gamers. I come from a board game background. Consequently when I see mechanics in RPG's that in some way mimic or resemble the rule sets that I was accustomed to in some board games, I find myself beginning down that same path to the "mine the rule set to leverage your knowledge to win the game" mindset. I struggle very hard against this since I had always, in my minds eye, seen RPGs as the antithesis to this idea. In the year and a half that I have been gaming I have yet to buy a single RP game book. They look all too familiar, all those rules. (Joking, heh)

So, this brings me back to Hero Wars and how I am dealing with the need to know mechanics of the game and a desire to be free of them. I have thrown much of this on patient GMs in the past, as I am now also doing to Johnzo in the present. For that I apologize. I have this perhaps irrational fear that the more deeply I become immersed in a rule set the more likely my character will just become another counter, like that little square piece of cardboard in Squad Leader or Gettysburg. It is a conflicted position, since those are the very rules that support the game play I like so much now. Any idea on how I might resolve this?

Although I provided a fair amount of back story (no where near Yasha's) I still feel as though it was a simple sketch. I like this character development in game since that is where one becomes really attached to the character. (Thanks Mike Holmes for your clarification on Keywords. Sounds like I am almost doing that now.) But attachment breeds another set of problems also. Hmmm, just had an idea here so I will continue that thought in a few days.

Hope this did not wander off topic too much...

[contracycle]

I don't think theres anything inherently wrong with this approach - it is probably Pawn stance play.

Check out the thread on minimaxing for a recent discussion.  It is not the case that exploiting rules intelligently is automatically bad play or bad for play: but it might clash with other tastes.  What this all probably means, in Forge terms, is that you tend twoards a gamist style, and that might be soemthing that your GM can work with.

[epweissengruber]

I find myself beginning down that same path to the "mine the rule set to leverage your knowledge to win the game" mindset."

If you like this style of game, inform your GM.  If the group has an established preference for Simulation-based exploration of setting, you can still work from your instincts.  Instead of exercising your strategic mind on weapon mods or dice pools, you can start to thing of Setting appropriate strategy: HeroQuest -- can I gather enough magical support to defeat the superior numbers/technology of the Lunar invaders.  Will you be able to rally enough clans in time to make an attack on a day when the Red Moon is at its weakest.  I think you can still operate in a Narrative game as well.  You could create a character who has to explore a Premise such as "Which is more important: the fate of my clan or the freedom of Sartar?"  You will still be using strategic thinking, but your character (and possibly you yourself) will have to decide the values that guide the application of your strategic intelligence.

But if you make your talents and interests known to the GM, and are prepared to do a little adjusting to fit into a Social Contract, I don't see any need to change your playing style.

[Hafaza]

Thanks for your comments. Upon deeper introspection I really see that what I am enamored with in this RPG world is the idea that I can dictate my own story, that the fate of my character is not simply in the hands of the cold, cruel luck of the draw or throw. I in fact find myself teetering on the precipice of the narrative end I guess, though these terms are somewhat new to me. In any case, points are well taken on the contract you have with those you are playing with and also the communication with one's GM. I shall go and explore some of the suggested threads and also those dealing with some of the bigger concepts (styles of play etc.).

But attachment breeds another set of problems also. Hmmm, just had an idea here so I will continue that thought in a few days.

I wrote this in my previous post and the issue I was thinking of was PC death. In board games death is continuous and attrition part of play but in RPG I have yet to see a PC die. Anyway, I came up with this idea that since we were running a three session game it might be possible to kill my character in an appropriately heroic way at the end of the last session. I thought about what circumstances might be needed for it to happen and decided to wait and see if they occurred in play. Well, they did, but things did not go according to my plan. My character was instead cast into the underworld, where he would remain frozen in that instant of time for eternity. Pretty damn good I must say and an ending that I am very pleased with.

I learned a lesson or two, both reinforced by others here and by me again in the first paragraph of this post. Know what the contract is. (Did I step outside it when I began plotting the demise of my character while away from the table?) Communicate your feelings to your GM. (Clearly I whiffed here.)

Thanks Johnzo and James for a great few sessions.