Check my math on a spell

[Lebo77]

I had posted thin in another thread but got no response, so here I repost it in it's own thread.

Oh yeah, what would the CTN be for the following spell of one. Check my math:

Grow

CTN= 5
T: 0 (targets the caster)
R: 0 (Targets the caster)
V: 2 (Caster's body < 400lbs.)
L: 3
Vagarity: Growth-3

Grows the caster to 100x his normal size. I don't have the book in front of me, but it boosts his strength and toughness into the 20 range. Is it er... at all troubleing that a CTN 5 spell can turn a 98lb. weakling spellcaster into a 600ft. tall invulnirible killing machine? All he REALY has to do is step on his attackers. His feet are likely about 100ft.x45ft, so it would be hard to get out of the way, and wrecking whole towns is not out of the question in the slightest. Pushing over a castle wall would be like knocking over a sandcastle.

I understand that a reverse spell would need to be used to turn the caster BACK to normal size. (unless it was decided that the effects required the caster to sustain the effect, still no big deal).

If this spell were formilized, the CTN drops to 3, now the caster could likely resist ageing almost every time, with a reasonible number of allocated Spell pool.

I understand TROS magic is meant to be powerfull but dangerous. I see in this case a spell that is powerfull (not "Kill one person every time, no chance to survive", but "Wreck the kingdom" powerfull!) and not particularly dangerous to the caster. Did I do something wrong in my calculation? I guess my question is: Why would a PC gifted NOT take this spell?

Now I noticed that the FOLD spell listed the Target number at 3, so which is it?  That spell effectsthe caster only as well.  That would mae this spel a lot rougher to cast without ageing.

[Jake Norwood]

Lebo-

You're not missing anything. That's how it works. There's no reason a piddly sorcerer in TROS can't kill lots and lots and lots of people. Kinda scary, huh?

Jake

[prophet118]

magic should be dangerous... im finally coming around to that...
basically put, magic is an awesome force... not something that everyone has access to from D&D... it just not that common

thats what jake wanted i think.

[Brian Leybourne]

Oh god. I can see the "it's too easy for a starting mage to destroy the universe" argument coming again... :-)

Lebo, you're entirely correct. Remember that magic is not (and is not supposed to be) balanced in TROS. For the record though, I would personally require that spell to have a duration component, which means using summoning, so it becomes a spell of three and the CTN goes up by a few points, but yerah, it's still uber powerful.

Why a duration? Natural changes are permanent, magical auterations are not. A 600 foot tall human is not natural and must clearly be magically maintained (or he would instantly be crushed into paste by his own mass thanks to the square/cube ratio) thus the duration component. That's all IMO and IMG of course, YMMV.

Brian.

[Lebo77]

I thought spells of one could be "sustained" by allocateing Spell Pool dice?  Why not just sustain the Giant transormation for as long as required, then drop it, returning you to normal size?  I allmost think this woudl be MORE usefull then haveing a duration. This way, you don't need to cast another spell to dispell your old spell, much faster and no spell pool costs.  

Oh, What i someone gets a spell down to CTN 0?  I had a highly Gameist "game-breaker" friend of mine go overthe rules, and he put together a charicter who was a Fey, had the Mindfull (the one that drops all CTN by 1 when rested) and a familliar (1 free anti-age success).  He could use gestures and speach on every spell, plus the mindfull advantage, and a formilized CTN 5 spell was CTN 0.  Allocate 1 Spell pool, cast the spell successfully EVERY time, no chance of failure, with ZERO chance of ageing.  In fact, he has 1 un-required success to resist.  Even if the mindfull advantage was not useable (not well rested) the same effects were in play.  Automatic success, zero chance of ageing, total cost 1SP.

I understand magic has to be powerfull, but it is also said it comes with great cost.  I SEE the great power, and understand that is how it is meant to be, but where is the great cost?  It looks to me like you can put together a sorcerer or fey who only suffers ageing when they feel like it. (by pushing beyond there  carefully calculated "safe" limit, which can still flatten citys).  A lot of attention is payed in the book to how socery can cost the sorcerer his youth, but it looks to me like this is strictly optional.  In this case I doubt he would think twice about fireing off spells within his safe limit, regardless of if his SA were fireing or not.  

Now don't get me wrong, I LIKE the concert of powerfull magic, but if a member of my party (gameist "game breaker") decided to actualy PLAY this guy, I wonder what the rest of the party would do while he was out derstoying various small civlizations.  Sure, I can invent other Uber-Fey to stop him, but that still leaves the other players as AT BEST supporting cast in the "Story of supremely powerfull sorcerers".  And at worst totaly irrelivent to the story.  I don't care how many SA you have fireing, when a 600lft. giant steps on you, your only way out is a luck point.

Sure, I can tell the player "The Fey are secritive, they don't go out smashing citys!" but the players have free will and can simply say "Well, I am not your normal fey, I care nothing for the old traditions!" and we are back at square one.

[Ben Lehman]

Now don't get me wrong, I LIKE the concert of powerfull magic, but if a member of my party (gameist "game breaker") decided to actualy PLAY this guy, I wonder what the rest of the party would do while he was out derstoying various small civlizations.  Sure, I can invent other Uber-Fey to stop him, but that still leaves the other players as AT BEST supporting cast in the "Story of supremely powerfull sorcerers".  And at worst totaly irrelivent to the story.  I don't care how many SA you have fireing, when a 600lft. giant steps on you, your only way out is a luck point.

BL>  Bingo.
 So.  Don't let people play spell-casters unless you want the game to focus on them.
 Mind you, I've seen casters and noncasters mix well in a TRoS game, but that requires to casters to purposefully place themselves on the sidelines from time to time.  Also, it requires spell-casters with enough dignity not to grow themselves to 600 ft. monstrosities at the drop of a hat.  (I'm sorry, that's just dumb.  It is in no way cool.)
 I could give you some work arounds (the ground gives way underneath anything that big, confining him to the center of the earth forever) but ultimately the answers is that you, as the GM, have to account for the existence every single magical character on a case-by-case basis.  Players do not have a fundamental "right" to make a magic or fey character.  You have to decide to let them if that's what you want to do with your campaign.  If you think a player would run around stomping cities, and you don't want him to, don't let him play a fey.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  How did he get two major gifts AND be a fey?

[Lebo77]

P.S.  How did he get two major gifts AND be a fey?

Actualy, Familliar is a minor gift.  I think his plan was to buy it after game start.  Only 10 SA points.  Even for a fey, that's only about 1-2 game sessions.

[Jake Norwood]

Ha. Hahahahah.ha. ...hah hah...

Usually I hear "Magic costs too much! This game sucks!" Oh well...

Yes, CTN 0 spells are do-able and there's no reason other than a group's chosen style of play (read: social contract) not to use them. (Put the minimum CTN at 1, which is automatic, but requires dice).

That being said, you have three options.

1) Don't let him play a sorcerer. A skilled gamist with a penchant for chaos could be disastrous.

2) Set limits on what sorcery can do. TROS sorcery is a toolkit, meant to be hemmed in and customized by individual groups.

3) Let him do it and see what happens. It could be fun.

Remeber also that although spell casters are very very rare, there are others who may not take well to what he's doing, and it's possible to kill from accross the planet without having to even see your target with TROS magic. Let your player know this, and warn him not to piss off the wrong people (read: powerful NPC sorcerers). Not all mutants are supervillians, and not all sorcerers are either villians or hermits. Can't you see some TROS super-hero sorcerers? I can.

As for him not aging for his power... put him in situations where he needs lots of magic beyond his easily formaized goofball spells. Focus on what he wants, based on his SAs. If he isn't working on them then he won't progress. If he is, then play is happening and it's probably not a bad thing, though you'll have almost no control over the fate of your group. It's a style of play decision.

Jake

[Spartan]

Yes, CTN 0 spells are do-able and there's no reason other than a group's chosen style of play (read: social contract) not to use them. (Put the minimum CTN at 1, which is automatic, but requires dice).

My character in Salamander's game has a CTN 0 spell... it'll come in very handy too.  That being said, most mages would not have too many of them anyway.  Given the cost of magic, I think a Gifted character needs all the help he can get. ;)

-Mark

[Lebo77]

Jake-

    Don't get me wrong, I love the game, and to be fair, I haded the rules to my gameist buddy and asked him to break it.  In actual play I doubt he would be so cheezy as to do what I spoke of earlier.  I do know  couple of players who might however.  In general I like your solutions to this POTENTIAL problem, The simpleist being:

1) Don't let him play a sorcerer. A skilled gamist with a penchant for chaos could be disastrous.

Yeah, this guy is skilled.  A PhD in applied math and 20 years of heavy RPG experience will to that for you.  It only took him a well less then a half-hour to figure out that by only makeing the spells effect yourself, the CTN drops by about 5.  His stated goal was to greate the most efficent way to create controlled distruction with magic, with the minimum chance of ageing.  This was what he came up with.

I will give you (and whoever wrote the magic section) credit, the thought of ageing sure put the fear of god in this player, but his response; instead of trying to cut down of the level of power the spell had, was to find ways to crunch down the target number through modifiers.  

This one:

3) Let him do it and see what happens. It could be fun.

Has me a little worried... but hey, you might be right and it could be a lot of fun.  At least once.  If his first response every combat was "casting my growth spell, 600ft. spending 1SP and none to resist. That's one second." it would get old fast.  


My only worry about:

it's possible to kill from accross the planet without having to even see your target with TROS magic. Let your player know this, and warn him not to piss off the wrong people (read: powerful NPC sorcerers).

My only worry about killing him from across the planet is that it smacks of a "cow from space".  The "You screwed up and so now you die by GM fiat.", while sometimes satisfying for the GM when offing a difficult charicter, does somewhat lack in drama.

As for him not aging for his power... put him in situations where he needs lots of magic beyond his easily formaized goofball spells. Focus on what he wants, based on his SAs. If he isn't working on them then he won't progress. If he is, then play is happening and it's probably not a bad thing, though you'll have almost no control over the fate of your group. It's a style of play decision.

Heh.  Yeah, I told him every combat in my game might just have to happen inside, with a heavy stone roof overhead.  Or in a cave... any thing to make him "keep his head down".  Actualy if he DID insist on this spel, I can imagine a "King Kong vs. Godzilla" scene between two giant wizards, while the rest of the party plays the scared Japanese residents of Tokyo being a real possibility.

Oh, and I will tell him the game's author says his "killer spell" is "goofball".  He will get a kick out it. I assure you.


                                                                                     - Lebo77

P.S. After the "game-breaker" finished his fey, he turned rround and made a more realistic charicter: A foppish high noble letch from the seat of the empire, with good looks, a rapier skill of 2, and the SA: Seduce the empress. No power-gameing whatsoever.

[Lebo77]

Actualy, I just realised, my math was off by an order of magnitude.  If strength and toughness go up 1 for every 50% size boost.  
100x = 10,000%

10,000% / 50 = 200

So STR and TOU go up 200, not 20.  At this point the rules implode in a great flash of light.  
"Oh, you did 203 damage?  No effect."

"Oh, you did 208?  Well, then you take his head off, Lvl 5 to the face, nasty."

You are right Jake.  This spell is goofball.

[Valamir]

My only worry about:
Quote:

it's possible to kill from accross the planet without having to even see your target with TROS magic. Let your player know this, and warn him not to piss off the wrong people (read: powerful NPC sorcerers).  


My only worry about killing him from across the planet is that it smacks of a "cow from space". The "You screwed up and so now you die by GM fiat.", while sometimes satisfying for the GM when offing a difficult charicter, does somewhat lack in drama.

Heh.  player confronts big bad.  Player turns into 600 foot giant and crushes big bad.  A short time later a massive Dragon tranformed into a dirty inoffensive beggar hands PC a scroll.  The scroll reads.

"600 foot giant.  Not bad.  Of course, I first did that when I was 12.  I'm about 348 or so now...I lost track.  Congratulations on your success as a Sorcerer.  Now don't ever do that again.  I find such overt displays of magical power disrupts my studies.  And those I serve don't care for it either.  Highest Regards."

At that point your players brain should be doing some rapid calculations as to the potential abilities of a Sorcerer with an addition 3 centuries of learning under his belt...not to mention the abilities of whoever he serves.

And the retaliation doesn't have to be a cow from the sky.  It could simply be a spell cast from the other side of the world which transforms the sorcerer back into himself in mid stomp...oops...

Heh...that's sounding pretty fun actually.

[kenjib]

Actualy, I just realised, my math was off by an order of magnitude.  If strength and toughness go up 1 for every 50% size boost.  
100x = 10,000%

10,000% / 50 = 200

So STR and TOU go up 200, not 20.  At this point the rules implode in a great flash of light.  
"Oh, you did 203 damage?  No effect."

"Oh, you did 208?  Well, then you take his head off, Lvl 5 to the face, nasty."

You are right Jake.  This spell is goofball.

It's logorhythmic I believe (like amortization tables), not linear.  Otherwise the math doesn't work out.  Example:

Mass of 10 units increases by 200 percent to 30 units.  With your new mass this is +4 str & tou.

However, mass 10 units increases 100 percent (now 20 units).  This is +2 str & tou.  To get to 30 units as per the previous example, you increase an additional 50%, which gives a grand total of +3 str & tou.

These two different approaches to achieving the same change in mass should not yield different results.  Of course, whether or not logarhythmic equations should be used in a PnP RPG is another matter entirely but regardless, it's already there.

I can't remember the exact math these days, but it will be less than a 200 increase in str and tou.

[kenjib]

Also, with 100x size, does that indicate mass or dimensions?  Mass seems more sensible to me, in which case the maximum size increase wouldn't take someone anywhere near 600 feet tall.

[Lebo77]

Well, if you make it mass, then Growth just got a HECK of a lot less powerfull.  It makes createing boulders out of pebbles impossible. Not that growth would be usless under this scheme, just DRAMATICLY less powerfull.  Is there an official "cannon" ruleing on weather growth applies to Dimentions or mass?  Also, can growth be applied unequaly to a specific dimention? e.g. Make the tree taller, but not bigger arround.

Can growth be applied to a specific part of an object?  Can I make the overconfident Duke's head grow to 10x normal size?  What about shrinking the blade of a sword to 1/10th size? (but leave the handle intact... I want those pretty gems in the hilt!)

Also, does the dimention of the spell (20lb, 400 lb, 2000 lb) apply to the original form, the final form, both or either?  If it applies to the original form, then could a Giant "be broiught down to size" at all?  If a Giant (the creature from the book, not a super-sized sorcerer) was about to knock your head in, would it be possible to shrink him down to human size, and if you did, would it be perminent? It would not be "un-natural" he is just a normal-sized creature.  (trying to swing a REALY big club...)

I think the big problem with this scenario is the fact that the giant weighs more then 2000lbs.  A sorcerer can accelerate a 1999lb. object to the speed of light with movement-3, but against a 2001 lb. object he is completely impotant.  I guess he might be able to use sculpture to crack off a piece, move one half, move the other half, then put them back together again, but... does that seem like a lot of work for what are billed as POWERFULL sorcerers?

I am begining to see that sorcery is powerfull, but at the same time it's fairly limited.  Not limited by ageing, most things worth doing can be done avoiding that. (OK, healing is not one of those) It can do some VERY impressive things, but there is a lot it just can't do at all.