Why I Didn't Buy TroS at GenCon

[xiombarg]

So how would you do it? The existing rules are based on my experiences at the time. It is undeniable that any weight in excess of 10 lbs effects atheletic performance for the kind of activity that swordfighting is. How would you realistically represent that?

And I would like to mention, as an aside, the Jake articulates here a design goal that some of you haven't recognized: The combat system is intended to be realistic. This is a design goal, to be as realistic as possible without bogging the system down too much.

Consider the racist example. Giving black people a +5 to cotton-picking is highly offensive. However, if you wanted a game that accurately simulated social reality in the US, being black would give you a negative "reaction modifier" from most white people, an unfortunate fact of life brought to us by the television age. Would that be offensive to put into a game that was aiming for realism on this point as a design goal?

As other people have mentioned, it's an unfortunate -- but true -- fact of life that being overweight makes you a less effective fighter in hand-to-hand combat. So how would one simulate that and not be "creepy"?

[Jared A. Sorensen]

I'm just weirded out that ejh was offended by TRoS and not by octaNe.

[toli]

However, if you wanted a game that accurately simulated social reality in the US, being black would give you a negative "reaction modifier" from most white people, an unfortunate fact of life brought to us by the television age.

I'd say the negative reaction modifier existed well before the TV age.  In the USA, most immigrants would also get negative modifiers for a generation at least....ah gives  us your tired, poor...or what ever...  

A lot of people have mentioned that being overweight reduces combat ability.  I would argue that this is not entirely true.  It reduces certain types of combat ability generally related to speed, agility and endurance.  

However, being heavy is an advantage in some situations.  Mass gives you more momentum or inertia (more or less...).  There is a reason that offensive linemen in American Football are big guys.  While they are certainly strong, they are also often overweight...but they are hard to move.  I can imagine many situations where heavy fighters would have advantages based on being able to use their bulk to knock people out of the way or avoid being knocked out of the way.  For example, when breaking or maintaining a shield wall or phalanx or attacking or defending a door way, the added mass could be a large advantage (as long a ones endurance lasted).

In sports like wrestling (real), extra weight is often an advantage if the person knows how to use it.  (of course to the limits of endurance).

I played RuneQuest for a while.  Combat damage was based on Strength and Size.  I think that the ability to avoid or cause knockdowns may have also been based partially on size.

[ejh]

Jared --

Read up in the thread to the part where I mention "genre conventions." :)  All's fair when you're not trying to say "this is reality" but "this is a particular perspective on reality enshrined in literature and/or film."  Changes the whole way I look at things.  I'm not *in general* easily offended, this just pushed a particular button in my little mental universe.

Valamir --

Thanks. :)  Like I said, I don't expect to change people's minds on this, I was just articulating where I stood and why my reaction to it was strong.

Jake --

I've never had very much fun arguing on any topic in which my interlocutor starts out with phrases like "It is undeniable that..." -- that pretty much signals to me that this is probably a "we're going to have to agree to disagree" situation right off the bat, and it's better to cut losses before we begin.

Even if that weren't the case, though, I didn't get a chance to get to know TroS well enough to make any kind of intelligent suggestion at all -- I'd be pulling stuff completely out of my ass.

But when it comes down to it, this issue is the only even remotely negative thing I've seen about TroS.  I kind of took for granted that you already know that the game rocks the world, but let me say it again -- it's an outstanding game and you are to be commended.

[Jake Norwood]

ejh-

You're missing my point. It's useless having a discussion arguing that being overweight doesn't effect swordsmanship and other combat arts based on reflex and agility. Wrestling and football are different animals. You will see no centers playing tied end.

My question is: how would you model the realistic disadvantage in play, if you feel we have done it incorrectly. That's all.

Jake

[toli]

Jake,

I'm not really missing the point.  I'm just adding one.  I've got no problem with the effects on sword play etc.  They are modeled well.  I was just noting that in some situations, extra weight is an advantage--generally when you are trying to bash your way through something.  I'd agree that I don't think it is in a regular sword fight.

NT

[Jake Norwood]

Note that heavier characters have a significant advantage in wrestling in TROS rules. I don't hear any skinny people shouting out that anything is wrong.

Listen guys, I hear you. I was a "husky" kid that has worked very hard to get the weight off. I'm there with you. But I'm just asking how would you do it differently.

So how? No more explanations, apologies, or whatever. Just. Mechanics. and. why.

Jake

[toli]

I don't remember if this is in the rules already but...

Make mass ratio a factor in maneuvers like shield bashing or shoulder charging or even block open.  More massive fighters might gain CP advantages (or cause CP disadvantages to their foes) by unbalancing opponents.

NT

[ejh]

Jake --

Already told you, I don't know the mechanics of TroS, or the details of real world combat, well enough to make any suggestions.  (You'll note that it has not been me, but other users, piping up with rules suggestions of one kind or another.)

If you want the simplest change that would be necessary to get rid of what put me off it, that would probably be:

"keep the mechanical effects, whatever they are [I don't know what they are, I didn't read that far] exactly the same, but get rid of the conceptual unification between fat and encumbrance -- i.e. put 'em in different sections, get the Increasingly Fat Guy out of the 'sample encumbrance' pictures, and so on."

In other words, it wasn't the mechanics that bugged me -- I didn't even read far enough to know what the mechanics *are*.  It was the conceptualization of fat as equivalent to carrying a bunch of heavy inanimate objects, and the illustration that reinforced that conceptualization.

(And a final disclaimer: I didn't come in here to tell you how to rewrite your game!  I'm only responding to a specific request on your part. :)

[Jake Norwood]

ejh-

I think the problem, them, is misunderstanding what "encumbrance" is in TROS. In TROS "encumbrance" is anything that gets in the way of mobility for the sake of combat and similar movment. Thus a guy in a long robe is more encumbered than a guy with a heavy back strapped on tightly. Large amounts of body fat do this in my experience, observation, and reasearch. The other effect of obesity is reduced endurance, which is handled through normal old endurance rules in TROS.

IOW, I think that your reaction, while understandable on a gut level, was a little premature. I hope you pick up TROS anyway and see what I mean.

Jake

[ejh]

Jake --

From the very beginning of the discussion, I never said I wasn't gonna buy it ever, just that I didn't then. :)  We'll see what happens the next time I have $35 in my pocket and am confronted by a copy of it. :)

[grot]

A side note: while I am not a member of the ARMA (never really had anyone in it around to recruit me or anything) I have done a lot of SCA combat (which I know is not the same) and SCA fencing (ditto).   I will point out a few absoultey true facts from those experiences:

Big people make bigger targets for rapiers.  While this is negligible in armored combat (heavy list), when two people are duelling in a circle using reasonably light weapons (Schlager weight), short, thin people are simply harder to hit than bigger guys (be they athletic or not).  For a thrusting weapon, it matters a lot.

Big people are EXACTLY who you want in your shield wall.  I've been in numerous, numerous battles where having 10 250+ pounders in my shield wall led to VASTLY supperior tactica positioning 10 seconds after the walls collided.  MASS MATTERS.  Now, once the combat became chaos, i would argue that my ability to run around quickly, in lighter armor, with not-too-much extra weight, led to me surviving much longer than those brutes who got me into the battle in the first place.

I think the rules capture these points pretty well (need to refresh the thrusting rules in my head though).