Amber - Abashedly Narrativist?

[Epoch]

Ron Edwards said in another thread:

Amber is an interesting choice to be using, because I think its design is (to use Jim Henley's term for Everway) "abashedly Narrativist," which means that it has to drift a bit to get Narrativist, and similarly, drifts easily into other modes of play. That whole issue is worth its own thread, though.

I'll assert myself as probably one of the more experienced Amber players and GM's on the Forge (Jim/Supplanter doubtless beats me in quality of play, if not sheer quantity), and I'm not sure I agree with this.  Certainly, Erick Wucjik, the designer of Amber, is unqualifiedly gamist -- he's perhaps the purest example of stereotypical gamism I've seen, and the writing of the game is colored by that stance.

The base system?  Ignoring the (gamist) Attribute Auction, I'd say that it's pretty darn neutral.  I don't see much hint of the shared creative control that tends to mark Narrativism.  The stat set-up is Simulationist of the canon material -- for example, melee combat ability and being a good general are equated seemingly because they're equated for Corwin, Benedict, Bleys, and Eric in the Amber chronicles.  The ranking system pushes things a bit gamist-wards, and the XP system...  Well, can I come up with a new game style called "Obnoxiousist" or "Brokenist"?

I'd probably call Amber "abashedly gamist," if anything...  But I'm interested to hear why Ron (or anyone else) thinks it's "abashedly narrativist."

[Uncle Dark]

Amber is tricky to pin down in this way because of the nature of the powers of the PCs.  Pattern Initiation gives a character strong directorial control, when among shadows.  The player doesn't have that power (in fact, most Amber games I've played in have a strong simulationist/immersion bent), and the character can lose it in any number of circumstances.

Frex, one Amber game I played in, the GM actively discouraged players acting on OOC info.  Players whose characters were "onstage" were actually in a different room than those whoe were "offstage!"  This same GM pushed everyone to use their shadow-shifting powers in very creative ways to invent and control NPCs and events in Shadow.

I guess I'd have to agree that Amber Diceless Roleplay is GNS neutral.  Attribute Auctions and the endless Power and Quality lists seem gamist, the emphaiss on going back to the books to research/justify things seems simulationist....  Narritavism seem sto be there in potential only.

Lon

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

I'm not disturbed by this. Perhaps a Narrativism-oriented person finds Amber to be abashedly-Narrativist, a Gamist-oriented person finds it to be abashedly-Gamist, and so on. It's certainly drifted into highly focused forms in all three directions among those who play it.

And of course - I don't know why people have a hard time seeing this - a game ISN'T "really" a this-game or a that-game. We're talking about the behaviors and approaches facilitated by its design.

So my point is that I agree regarding Amber as a written document.

Regarding people's experience playing Amber ... um, don't take this the wrong way ... sometimes I think that the time they've spent is a good indication of how far they've "drifted" from how it's written (which is, as we agree, not focused in GNS terms).

Oh, one last thing - yes, I think there's a good term for an RPG that functionally breaks down due to conflicting and muddled goals (or rather, a system that leads to this) - "incoherent." But I also think there are games that are not really incoherent, just not GNS-focused, which forces people to drift to a GNS/focus in order to play them enjoyably for a long time. I think Amber is one of these, and perhaps my use of abashedly-Narrativist simply reflects the direction into which my group, unsurprisingly, drifted in order to play it.

In some ways, I regret using the Amber example, because as a game, it generates huge defensiveness among its users. "You can't say anything mean or bad about Amber! I play Amber!" And so on. You haven't said any such thing, but I'm going into hunker-defense posture anyway ... I can see a storm coming.

Best,
Ron

[Epoch]

No, I agree that experience can blind you to a game.  I try to be conscious of how I've drifted from the text, since, in my case, it's not so much a drift as a full-fledged fighting retreat.  It's not that I dislike gamism, but I really dislike Erick Wucjik's brand of gamism.