You guys are nutz

[ethan_greer]

That's a splendid idea, Mike.

[Gordon C. Landis]

Dav - yes, details, please.  I guess Ron covered most of the band-stuff (there is one, which provided opportunities and covered some costs, generated an audience, and etc.), but the game-stuff . . . you sold CD's?  Based on what kind of sales pitch (if any)?  To music fans, or gamers, or "lifestyle enthusiasts," or others, or all-the-above?

Personal opinion - as a game-demo environment and even as a sales environment, the Forge booth is merely a "best use within existing constraints."  I think it'd be better if we could get groups of people together with groups of demo runners/designers in their own "room."  Folks set aside a couple-four hours to get demos of multiple games in one time slot.  As I understand GenCon rules, you can't run an "event" and do sales, so this would have to happen at some sort of "off campus" facility, maybe as part of the party/event/thing.

hmm . . . or maybe, in addition to the after-hours with-alcohol and etc. event, we can reserve a (multiple?) small lunch room(s?) somewhere, from 11:30-2:30 or so.  Get attendees to pitch in for food - bill it as "lunch with the designers" or something - run 2-3 demos simultaneously, get to pitch your game to 8-12 folks and eat lunch too!  4 days of the con, that turns into like 32-48 sales ops, to fairly motivated folks (as long as these lunch sessions are well-attended), for an investment of about 35-40% of available exhibitor hall hours - is that a good use of time?  Maybe . . .

And 'cause I don't want to resist - Dav, while you are correct that "volunteering" all day at the Forge booth for no good reason and all that is a bit strange, the idea of YOU calling other folks "odd" is . . .  Well, it gave me a chuckle.

Gordon

[Mike Holmes]

Personal opinion - as a game-demo environment and even as a sales environment, the Forge booth is merely a "best use within existing constraints."  I think it'd be better if we could get groups of people together with groups of demo runners/designers in their own "room."  Folks set aside a couple-four hours to get demos of multiple games in one time slot.  As I understand GenCon rules, you can't run an "event" and do sales, so this would have to happen at some sort of "off campus" facility, maybe as part of the party/event/thing.

Actually, the rule I think you're thinking of, Gordon, is that you can't sell at events. That is, you aren't supposed to run a game, and then try to sell the game to the players. That doesn't mean that you can't run a good game and then tell the players offhandedly where the booth is in case they're interested. There's a fine line, but I believe that all the vendors that do the room thing sit right on that line.

That said, I'm not sure how difficult it is to get a room. It's a simple matter at Origins, but I didn't see any designated rooms at GenCon. Can't hurt to ask.

The other problem with the room idea, however, is that a room demo has some minimum time requirement - at least an hour, and probably more to attract people to play. Two hours seems the normal minimum for a demo, and four is not uncommon. And in any case, it's a long distracting walk from the game room to the booth. I'm not saying it's not worth looking into, but we went for the booth idea originally because of the problems involved with getting players from demos to purchasing. So it would need some more thought.

Hey, XIG guys! How does this all work! I've seen you guys running demos in the game rooms!

In any case, the problem with an "off-campus" demo is getting people to it. Like Gordon said, Dav, how do you advertise such a thing?

Mike

[Jeffrey Miller]

We saw a really good response to the "demo starting" sign.  I saw other booths that had demo sign ups.. how about combining the two?  Get Paul to make a sandwich board with a "get your demos here!" sign, a sign up sheet, etc etc..

(I'm NOT volunteering to wear this, you understand.. just thinking out loud)

Justin D., you had some success using the open gaming space in the hall, didn't you? I don't recall if that was something you organized or was spontaneous, but I did see people with Pax Draconis material floating around.

-jeffrey-

[Mike Holmes]

So what you're saying is that they'd sign up for off-campus demos at the booth? That might work. They could even meet up with the GM at the booth, potentially. But this all obviates the reason for having the space in the first place, which is to have an alternate event to attract people. If they can't or don't get to it independently, and need the booth to get them there, then why not just run a demo at the booth?

Mike

[Gordon C. Landis]

Actually, the rule I think you're thinking of, Gordon, is that you can't sell at events. That is, you aren't supposed to run a game, and then try to sell the game to the players.  That doesn't mean that you can't run a good game and then tell the players offhandedly where the booth is in case they're interested. There's a fine line, but I believe that all the vendors that do the room thing sit right on that line.

Yes, that's my understanding of the "rules" too - sorry if I confused anyone by mis-communicating otherwise.  I think the ability to IMMEDIATELY sell after a demo is valuable, and so the possible work-arounds of an off-site room and/or a lunch function seemed like viable options.

The other problem with the room idea, however, is that a room demo has some minimum time requirement - at least an hour, and probably more to attract people to play. Two hours seems the normal minimum for a demo, and four is not uncommon.

That's why I thought running 3-4 (more?) approx. 1 hr demos at the same time, in the same room (with sufficient tables, space, and etc.) MIGHT work.    And details obviously could be tweaked - more, shorter demos, fewer, longer demos, a mix in the same room, some allowance for leaving early/arriving late - whatever.  This idea would depend on the ability to get somewhere upwards of 12 (4 groups of 3, 3 groups of 4 - again, tweakable) people in each time-slot who are interested in demoing multiple games consecutively - I'm not sure how hard that would be.

I'm liking the "event" Ron has sketched AND the lunch notion, myself, but who really knows what'll work?

Gordon

[Jeffrey Miller]

So what you're saying is that they'd sign up for off-campus demos at the booth? That might work. They could even meet up with the GM at the booth, potentially. But this all obviates the reason for having the space in the first place, which is to have an alternate event to attract people. If they can't or don't get to it independently, and need the booth to get them there, then why not just run a demo at the booth?

Ah.. I was thinking of it as a scheduled thing at the booth, but off-campus would work, as well, especially if we're flying under-the-radar of the con.  

One has to pay for con games - does that go 100% to the con, or..?

What if off-campus gaming/demos we charged, say, $3, and if you bought the game, you got that amount as a discount? Any $3-fee that was converted into a sale would be split between the GM and the game designer (and possibly the booth)?

Dav's thrown out a really neat idea, but he has the advantage of having the built-in fanbase that lines up with the band's fan base (at least, I imagine so, considering that all my Seattle Goth cronies are the ones who said, "Yeah, Apothis, I've heard of them..")  We're trying to market several different products to what is really the same market (gamers who are interested in indie for whatever reason) and I'm not sure how much comminality there is in that audience.. but its a point to ponder.

-j-

[madelf]

I don't know that much about cons, or the rules for demo games and selling, but I've got a thought. Maybe someone can tell me whether it would be "legal".

I'm assuming that at demo games there would be some sort of player hand-out. A pre-gen character, a quick overview of the rules, or something like that. If there isn't, then invent one.

Add to that hand-out a discount coupon good toward purchase of the game.
So you play the demo, and then get a buck or two off the game afterwards.
It might be that little extra incentive to get the people from the demo-room to the booth to buy the game.

But it wouldn't technically be selling at the demo. Would it?

Good idea? Bad idea? Really, really dumb idea?

[Gordon C. Landis]

Calvin,

At least two different folks at GenCon reported that they had done just that in demos for various products/companies in the past.  So - good idea, in general.

I think there's still a BIG difference between that and the ability to close the sale, NOW, after the demo, but such are the trade-offs of rules, I guess,

Gordon

[Mike Holmes]

Yeah, basically the transaction can't occur at the table (or anywhere outside the exhibitor halls; I've seen people selling Magic cards in the halls thrown out). But coupons are fine. I got a poker chip from a Pinnacle demo I played that was worth $5 off, for instance.

That doesn't make the walk to the booth any shorter or less distracting, however. You can get an assurance from the player to buy, a verbal contract, even (it might be against policy, but unenforceable), but that doesn't guaruntee that they'll show up at the booth, and tracking them down to get them to comply would be useless. Hmm, I don't suppose that we could somehow require players to go to the booth after playing a demo (perhaps escorting them)? Seems like a lot of trouble.

OTOH, many companies use this solely as their demo method, so I think that some people make it back to the booth. Oh, and IIRC some part of the money from tickets you collect used to be refunded to the GM. Used to be 1/3rd last time I ran an event, which was admittedly a few years ago.

Off-campus doesn't have this problem (we could sell on the spot), but doesn't have the advantage of being listed in the Con program, and makes advertising the location of the events difficult. Further, in either of these cases, if we have more than one location, then the designer/seller can only be at one place to hawk their games. This is the big advantage of demoing only at the booth, of course.

I love the idea of a Forge room for play, but I'm just trying to point out potential problems.

Mike

[Adam]

This may be obvious, but the cooler the handout, the more chance people will remember you, hit the booth, or at least take it home and look at it later. An excellent example this year was the White Wolf coasters - I grabbed a handful and they're on my table now. Sure, they're not promoting Time of Judgement anymore to me, but they're keeping it in my mind - because they're doing something /useful/.

I did buy a handful of stuff from the Forge booth, and got the bag-o-flyers with it. The stickers were cool, but most of the printed flyers were thrown away last night, mostly unread - some because I already had the game in question, some because they just didn't catch my eye, but most of all because even after I had read them once, they became clutter.

In the case of Deadlands [or Dust Devils..] poker chips are a cool idea for a handout, as are playing cards - although I know you have to print cards in rather large quantities to make them cost-effective.

Something stupidly simple like pencils/pens would also be handy at a con - I know I'm forever forgetting little things like that. Notepads with the Forge logo [or a specific game] at the top may also work well, especially for a game like Inspectres.

Also, if the demo game has pre-gen PCs, definately try and let the players keep the character sheet. Not only does it make it more practical during play if they can write on it, but it gives them something a little less generic to take home with them.

Best,
Adam

[Fade Manley]

One thing I noticed at Comicon this year, along with what Adam said, is that even if something isn't 'useful', if it's at least reusable, it's more likely to be kept. I picked up some little free prints for some comic that's coming out soon; ordinarily wouldn't have been interested in the comic at all, but the glossy prints are pretty, and were being handed out as 'free art' rather than as an advertisement, for all that they were on thin, cheap glossy paper. Most of the flyers I had got dumped, but I still have those--with the name of the comic printed on them, and their website--because the pictures were just cool enough that I wanted to put them up somewhere.

RPGs might not lend themselves to this kind of visual as much as comics do, but if you do have good art and can make good-looking cheap posters or prints of it, that's another way to have people keeping the ads.

And for what it's worth, there are quite a few games I've played demos of that I would have bought if there had been coupons offered after the game. Can't resist a deal like that, especially when I've just had fun with a game. Fairy Meat, for one, which I still think would make a great RPG with just a few more rules.

[Clay]

I'm thinking that this will work best if it sticks with Matt Wilson's proposed Sex, Drugs and Rock & Roll formula.  The promotional prophylactics idea really seemed great.  For that matter, the martial arts sparring sounded pretty cool too, maybe in lieu of a band.

One thought that occurred to me was homebrew beer for homebrew games.  Some bars are amenable to that in exchange for a fee.  Given the mental associations of homebrewers with sex (there are none), this might break the sex, drugs and rock & roll formula.  But it's an idea.

[madelf]

One thing I happened to remember.

At a local con there was a bunch of us who were doing the foam-padded weapon combat LARP (it has a name but I can't remember it) and an event was put on revolving around that.
There was also a Vampire LARP run at one of them.
They seemed to go over well and might be an idea to incorporate for a social event combined with roleplaying. One of the murder mystery events you hear about now and then might work as well.

[hardcoremoose]

Brand me a geek, but you know what I would do?

I'd find a big room with a big fucking TV, and then for like twelve hours I'd show the nastiest, most bizarre films I could cull from my DVD collection.  Make sure there's booze, make sure it's interactive somehow, and hawk my splatter rpg (if I ever write it) on the side.

Hell, maybe the folks at Media Blasters, or one of the other DVD vendors would want a piece of this.

I don't know what kind of a response it would could, but at least they'd be my kind of people.

- Scott