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275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4283 Members Latest Member: - otto Most online today: 68 - most online ever: 429 (November 03, 2007, 04:35:43 AM)
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Author Topic: Is Director Stance Real?  (Read 15275 times)
Le Joueur
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2001, 11:05:00 AM »

Quote
Ron Edwards wrote:

Anyone else want to weigh in on this one? I am finding myself shockingly open-minded regarding Vincent's suggestion. Save me from my folly or push me the rest of the way, I guess.

every tool and technique is the same for both<other<this new essaydefined<can<only makes sense<also<is making a decision) anything that affects play while still participating.

They way I see it, you can either have a long list in keeping with the division of Author and Director Stances or a short list in keeping with having no Audience Stance, but it is awkward and confusing to do both.

Having said all this, I would like to suggest an alternative.  Going for the minimalist approach, I think all of these Stances can be collapsed as Stances into Manipulator Stance and Character Stance.  And then Stance would be about what perspective<communication?  
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lumpley
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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2001, 11:13:00 AM »

Hey All.

Valamir -- precisely.  [X] is any element of the game about which one might make (effective) decisions.  Characters are in a lot of ways the most interesting [X]s, of course.

I may be jumping the gun a teeny bit, but since both Paul and Mike mentioned roles, I'll go ahead.  When the time comes to talk about Player vs. Director, I hope we can start with what Event Resolution methods are available to whom.

Frinstance,  in a conventional game, PC's actions are resolved relatively often by Fortune, and the arbiter / interpreter is another player (specifically, the GM).  NPC's actions are resolved relatively often by Drama -- especially when they happen offscreen -- and the arbiter is the player herself (specifically, still the GM).

I think it'll be especially useful to talk about the (rarely explicit) rules for who arbitrates what.  The choices as I see them are 1. the player herself, 2. some random or arbitrary other player, 3. a particular other player like a GM, or 4. the whole group.  Conventional games use 1. and 3. almost exclusively (as I'm sure you see).

So player mode and director mode, it seems to me, are preset combinations of factors:

Conventional Player mode = Stance relative to only my character + GM arbitration of event resolution + no doubt other things.

Conventional Director mode = Stance relative to everything but players' characters + self arbitration of event resolution + other things too.

But anyway.

-lumpley Vincent

(There, how about if lumpley is an adjective?)
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Mike Holmes
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« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2001, 11:27:00 AM »

Well, that was a lumpley response, all right.

Fang, Vincent..uh..I don't get it..

Can we try again? Just summaries.

Mike
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lumpley
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« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2001, 11:29:00 AM »

Fang,
Quote
Director Stance is clearly exclusive of the In-Character approach and if we recognize the only difference between it and Author Stance is scope, then it too collapses easily into Out-of-Character terminology.


I think that you can play the weather in character.  I'm not certain, but I think you can.  I can play a dog in character, for sure.  I can probably play an organization or a mob in character.  I admit that the weather is a little iffier.

I'm comfortable replacing Actor/Author/Pawn with In-character/Out-of-character.  That's how I talk about it casually anyway.  But I don't think Director Stance is part of OOC -- I think that Director Stance is a way of talking about what you're IC/OOC about.  Your character, your characters, your part of the game world, the whole game world, whatever.

-lumpley Vincent
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gentrification
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« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2001, 11:50:00 AM »

I know this isn't really on-topic, but...

Quote

On 2001-10-17 18:16, Jared A. Sorensen wrote:
I told the GM my character was going to grab the wash basin full of water and throw it at the bad guy. The GM told me there wasn't a wash basin -- but there was a chamber pot. I told him I would throw that -- he said it was too heavy.


I think your GM doesn't know what a chamber pot is. I can't imagine one being "too heavy" unless your character is, like, 12 inches high.

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Michael Gentry
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Paul Czege
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« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2001, 11:59:00 AM »

I can't imagine one being "too heavy" unless your character is, like, 12 inches high.

I think that because of excessive theft, the castle administration had been forced to bolt the remaining chamber pots to large stone blocks.


Wink


Paul
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lumpley
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« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2001, 12:17:00 PM »

Mike,

Uh oh.  Do you mean a summary of my actual point, or a summary of the post where I like go off and play with my toys all by myself, but you can watch?

I think you got my actual point, that instead of Director Stance what you really do is adopt one of the other stances toward something other than your character.  Your comment "Worms" seemed right on the money.

As to the latter, the jumping the gun post, all I really mean is that one of the biggest differences between being a GM and being a non-GM is who decides how your characters' actions turn out.  (Specifically, whether another player decides or you decide yourself.)  My goal, again, is to talk about players and GMs, and what the real differences between them are (if there are any).

-lumpley Vincent
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lumpley
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« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2001, 12:22:00 PM »

Mike said,
Quote
Wouldn't there also have to be some other stances then, though? ... Worms.


I'm not so interested in how you decide what your characters or other game elements do.  There might be two stances, as Fang suggests (I think), there might be a hundred, depending on which parts of the decision are interesting to you.  I'm more interested in which characters and other game elements you gets to make decisions about.

-lumpley Vincent
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Laurel
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« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2001, 12:43:00 PM »

There's a lot in this thread that just leaves me sitting in the mud watching the horses gallop by :smile:  Here's what I think was Lumpley's thesis.  If I'm on or off the mark, let me know.

Why would the Director stance be classified as a stance if it is not really a distinct way for a person to determine how the character in question is going to act?  The Director stance relies on the same determining factor (their own personal, non-character priorities) as Author/Pawn. The only difference is that the player is manipulating the gaming environment in some way, adding in people/places/things that allow them to achieve their meta-game goal rather than them using their character directly as the tool for achievement?

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Jack Spencer Jr
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« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2001, 01:04:00 PM »

IIUC the key to the Stances is the character.  Director may be an outgrowth of AUthor stance, but the reason they are two separate stances is how they relate to the PC.

Author Stance:

Player:  "I look at the ceiling.  Is there a chandlier?"

GM:  "Yes, there is."

Player:  "I jump and swing from the chandlier."




Director Stance:

Player:  "I jump and swing from the chandlier."


In the second instance the player in author mode has decided that it would be cool to swing from the chandlier, regardless of what the character wants but they didn't not want it so we can set aside the Pawn mode for the purpose of this discussion.  The difference between the first instance and the second is the player was able to put a chandlier in the room without consulting the GM.  It's there because the player says so because he wants his character to swing from it.  If the GM had said there was no chandlier, the player would have to rethink his action.  But in director stance, this is an unnecessary step.  He can create the chandlier out of thin air and necessity.

On the surface, it looks like director stance is more effecient.  It probably is in some instances but it probably isn't in other instances so that it balances out.

BTW, I'll die of shock if I spelled "chandlier" correctly.  I should use my unabridged dictionary, shouldn't I?
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Mike Holmes
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« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2001, 01:29:00 PM »

Quote

On 2001-10-18 15:59, Paul Czege wrote:
I can't imagine one being "too heavy" unless your character is, like, 12 inches high.

I think that because of excessive theft, the castle administration had been forced to bolt the remaining chamber pots to large stone blocks.


:wink:


Paul


This was a fantasy game. What if the chamber occupant were an ogre? One that had relieved himself recently.

:smile:
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Mike Holmes
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« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2001, 01:32:00 PM »

Quote

On 2001-10-18 17:04, pblock wrote:

Author Stance:
Player:  "I look at the ceiling.  Is there a chandlier?"

GM:  "Yes, there is."

Player:  "I jump and swing from the chandlier."


Director Stance:

Player:  "I jump and swing from the chandlier."


Player: There is a chandelier in the room.

What is that? Just creating something not at all in relation to the character.

I gotta know, because the players in Universalis do that as much as anything else.

Mike
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Le Joueur
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« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2001, 02:05:00 PM »

Quote
Lumpley wrote:

Quote
Fang wrote:

Director Stance is clearly exclusive of the In-Character approach and if we recognize the only difference between it and Author Stance is scope, then it too collapses easily into Out-of-Character terminology.

I think that you can play the weather in character.  I'm not certain, but I think you can.  I can play a dog in character, for sure.  I can probably play an organization or a mob in character.  I admit that the weather is a little iffier.
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Mike Holmes
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« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2001, 02:12:00 PM »

Quote
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Le Joueur
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« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2001, 02:21:00 PM »

Quote
pblock wrote:

IIUC the key to the Stances is the character.  Director may be an outgrowth of Author Stance, but the reason they are two separate stances is how they relate to the PC.

Author Stance:

Player:  "I look at the ceiling.  Is there a chandelier?"

GM:  "Yes, there is."

Player:  "I jump and swing from the chandelier."




Director Stance:

Player:  "I jump and swing from the chandelier."Quote
In the second instance the player in author mode has decided that it would be cool to swing from the chandelier, regardless of what the character wants but they didn't not want it so we can set aside the Pawn mode for the purpose of this discussion.  The difference between the first instance and the second is the player was able to put a chandelier in the room without consulting the GM.

Which, if I am not mistaken is the difference between Actor Stance and Author Stance.

Quote
It's there because the player says so because he wants his character to swing from it.  If the GM had said there was no chandelier, the player would have to rethink his action.  But in director stance, this is an unnecessary step.  He can create the chandelier out of thin air and necessity.
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