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Author Topic: Yup, looks like it needs to be said again  (Read 1320 times)
Valamir
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Posts: 5574


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« on: August 28, 2003, 01:49:02 PM »

Lots of new folks posting to this forum.  Welcome and glad to have you.

Please take the time to read the sticky threads at the top of this forum.  Unlike many other sites, the forum policies here are actually pretty strictly enforced.  

This is not a forum for neat ideas or musings about games we've been thinking about for awhile, or that just came to us in the shower. Nor is this a sounding board for seeking indications of interest on projects we might be thinking about starting.

This is also not a forum for discussing all of those neat mechanics ideas we all get from time to time (try RPG Theory for those types of discussions).

This is the "I have a game idea and I'm truly committed to having it published forum."  The moment we post a game idea to this forum we are basically announcing "coming soon".  This forum is for those games that will actually be completed, playtested, and released (free, for pay pdf, print, whatever).

Please make sure your game design is either something that's already almost ready to playtest or something you've committed the time and effort to making ready for playtest before posting about it here.

Thanks all.  No apologies are necessary.  We go through this every couple of months for the newest members so don't feel bad.  But do take time to read the stickies.

Hope to see a good many of these threads start anew with a real nearly finished game behind them in the near future.
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Mike Holmes
Acts of Evil Playtesters
Member

Posts: 10459


« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2003, 08:15:51 AM »

It's OK to talk about games made for one's own consumption, isn't it? I mean, yes we focus on publishng, but I was under the impression that we also looked at home designs. Am I laboring under a missapprehension?

Mike
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Valamir
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2003, 08:28:25 AM »

Quote
3) When posting to this forum, realize that it's tantamount to committing to being a game publisher. If you consistently flake out on the project, or are posting "a neat thing" to generate responses and dialogue, this adds up - you get the reputation as a wannabe designer rather than anyone worth paying attention to. Eventually, your posts will generate 0 responses and when you get your good idea that you're really committed to, it's too late - the Forge won't be helpful to you.

5) Finally, it helps a lot to be explicit about the means by which you'd like to publish the game - simple website posting, all the way to book-published store-distribution, and whatever in between (e.g. PDF for sale). This will help everyone give you the best advice possible.


From Ron's sticky above.
Of course simply putting the game on a website constitues publishing so that counts.  "Publishing" here means "actually complete the game and put it somewhere where others can obtain and play it".
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Mike Holmes
Acts of Evil Playtesters
Member

Posts: 10459


« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2003, 09:33:44 AM »

Ah, that clarifies it.  I knew you didn't have to sell it. That was the sticking point.

Mike
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Plenz
Member

Posts: 20


« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2003, 11:19:58 AM »

Quote
3) When posting to this forum, realize that it's tantamount to committing to being a game publisher. If you consistently flake out on the project, or are posting "a neat thing" to generate responses and dialogue, this adds up - you get the reputation as a wannabe designer rather than anyone worth paying attention to. Eventually, your posts will generate 0 responses and when you get your good idea that you're really committed to, it's too late - the Forge won't be helpful to you.




The above quote is confusing me. I have started a thread -The Xerox Missive- which is my PKD rpg. Now, I've posted a fair amount of starter subjects and have been trying to break it down into further sections for seperate threads. Now I think my game is "a neat thing" and I also aim for eventual publication. I do want to generate responses and dialogue, this will accelerate my creative process and also let me hear certain criticism that I need.
Now, if I do not expect people to respond to my posts or deter them from doing so...is this the right way? I feel strongly about my project and will say fuck all to anyone who considers my work to be in the "wannabe designer" vein of things.  I may not be able to post every day concerning my project but coupled with my notebook and thoughts; I work on it everyday. No flaking out here. Now, I'm just curious as to what the above is supposed to mean because I've been posting "neat things" that pertain to my game.

Best,

Plenz
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Mike Holmes
Acts of Evil Playtesters
Member

Posts: 10459


« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2003, 11:52:23 AM »

Holy cow, Plenz, you're like the complete opposite of the problem we're describing here. You came in with a huge idea, one that you were obviously designing. One based on an author's work, but already transformed to your own vision (Including an evocative title). In your first post, you kept to the themes mostly, but you even mentioned that you were using the I-Ching as a resolution method. You got into mechanics in the first post, and included all the sorts of information that we look for right away.

What you didn't do is come here and say, "I was thinking that a game that would be like a Dick novel, and there would be dinosaurs in it, or maybe some sharks with lasers instead." I mean you obviously had an idea that you wanted to work on, not a vague idea that you were hoping would become something you could work on by talking about it.

All the difference in the world. The "neat thing" was meant to indicate trite. You don't think that you're idea is trite, do you? I don't.

And posting bits at a time is fine. As long as it progresses. In fact bits is often better than trying to cover everything at once. That's in the sticky too.

So you're doing great. It's not your sort of post thats the problem, IMO.

Mike
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Plenz
Member

Posts: 20


« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2003, 12:14:36 PM »

Quote from: Mike Holmes
Holy cow, Plenz, you're like the complete opposite of the problem we're describing here. You came in with a huge idea, one that you were obviously designing. One based on an author's work, but already transformed to your own vision (Including an evocative title). In your first post, you kept to the themes mostly, but you even mentioned that you were using the I-Ching as a resolution method. You got into mechanics in the first post, and included all the sorts of information that we look for right away.

What you didn't do is come here and say, "I was thinking that a game that would be like a Dick novel, and there would be dinosaurs in it, or maybe some sharks with lasers instead." I mean you obviously had an idea that you wanted to work on, not a vague idea that you were hoping would become something you could work on by talking about it.

All the difference in the world. The "neat thing" was meant to indicate trite. You don't think that you're idea is trite, do you? I don't.

And posting bits at a time is fine. As long as it progresses. In fact bits is often better than trying to cover everything at once. That's in the sticky too.

So you're doing great. It's not your sort of post thats the problem, IMO.

Mike



Well, alright then. That's good to hear. It's just that I'm new around here and from what I've heard on other forums, people fear The Forge etiquette. I personally think it's a damn fine site and I'm glad to be sharing my ideas with people that care.
As for my hasty(and paranoid, hey we're dealing with PKD here)post I had read the above thread start and was all "This is me that he's talking about. I'm new here and don't know the skinny. Nobody else will reply" That sort of thing. Well, thank you much for the clarification Mike. Much appreciated.

Feeling better,

Plenz(Pete)
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Daniel Solis
Member

Posts: 411


« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2003, 01:05:05 PM »

Quick questions (that have likely already been answered and I've missed):

Where is the proper forum for developing the seed of an idea in its early stages? When does a project qualify as mature enough to be brought to this forum? Is PUNK still too young to make threads about?

I've got a couple ideas brewing along with my current major project, but I'd rather not post them if they're too unripe. "WTF?" was literally born and raised within a few days and a couple threads, then posted on the web. Is this the ideal for quickie RPG ideas?
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Meatbot Massacre
Giant robot combat. No carbs.
Mike Holmes
Acts of Evil Playtesters
Member

Posts: 10459


« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2003, 01:26:04 PM »

PUNK is fine, IMO (I have to put that in there, I'm not a moderator). WTF is fine, even. Hell, looked like nearly a whole game to me. I coulda playtested from there even. Not even close to what I think the stickies ban.

I think people are missing the point. These are all games that you intend to really work on, right? I mean, there's no requirement that you write in blood that you'll complete it, and you won't be banned if you don't. But you have to have the intent to begin with.

It can't be just an idea for a game. I has to be a game project.

I think that's pretty clear, no?

We're not picking on anyone, and really there's little to pick on. The worst cases here are borderline. I'm guessing that this thread is here because people are drifting that way. So as long as you think you're OK, you probably are. If you have a thread out there that you think is actually borderline, just go right now and make a post to it, saying something about the system and asking for some feedback on it. Or making a structured design post. Or something like that. Or even post there to ask what would make sense to ask.

Sheesh. A little preventive maintainence and people all start to get worried that their doing something wrong. As long as you're thinking about it, I'd bet your OK.

Mike
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JW Carroll
Member

Posts: 10


« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2003, 06:54:11 AM »

Personally as one of the new people here I have found the Forge very useful. Duellists is admittedly still in the very early stages of its construction and the feedback I am getting is IMO very helpful and is making the game ultimately stronger then had I waited to have something immediately playtestable.

I also see this problem as being ultimately self correcting. If people are not replied to then they will probably stop posting.

And just for the record in case anyone had any doubts I am committed to publishing Duellists in some form.
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simon_hibbs
Member

Posts: 678


« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2003, 06:40:36 AM »

I don't think we currently have a problem on this forum, but the stated policy does need re-iterating from time to time. I love this forum, and would hateb to see it degenerating into a mass of posts along the lines of "I've got this great idea for an RPG. You roll XDY and try to get Z. What do you think?" type posts.

If there is a good forum for that kind of post, it's probably the game design forum on www.rpg.net which compared to here is a mass of noise with a bit of occasional signal, but is still a decent place to get feedback on a few vague ideas. The RPG Theory forum on this site is also a good place to thrash out some aspects of game design preliminary to beginning a full writeup.

I know when I first showe dup here I wasn't realy aware of the ground rules, and didn't do as much reading of stickies as I should. That's natural. But this is a forum for people who are serious about getting a completed game finished and available for others to read and appreciate, and to stay that way we need to keep focused. I think that's all this thread is about.


Simon Hibbs
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Simon Hibbs
Tony Irwin
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2003, 01:04:20 AM »

Something that nobody has mentioned yet is the efforts of the people who read other people's designs and try and help (and there are many people here who offer unbelievable amounts of attention in that way and have been a real boon in my own efforts to write games). There are loads of posts and links on this board that I never reply to, but I do print off the work of as many different people as I can, sit down with a cup of tea and a red pen (I used to be a teacher), try and make sense of it, and think of anything I can that could be useful.

Its an absolute pest for me to later find that I am taking someone's work much more seriously than even they were taking it!

What I took as a serious request for other people's time and considered opinion was in fact just a momentary "brain dump", someone needing an online diary where they can draw some doodles and scribble something down, or perhaps an online toilet so they can get what's been bugging them all night out of their system. Why do that in public? Bathrooms have locks, computers have Word.

Grrrr. But then I've done it myself, maybe I'm just reaping my own reward. :-)
------------------------------
Edited to tone it down :-)
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simon_hibbs
Member

Posts: 678


« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2003, 01:43:03 AM »

Quote from: Tony Irwin
There are loads of posts and links on this board that I never reply to, but I do print off the work of as many different people as I can, sit down with a cup of tea and a red pen (I used to be a teacher), try and make sense of it, and think of anything I can that could be useful.


I can't thoroughly read through every game that comes along, so what I do is pick one or two that seem interesting and try to look at them in some depth (as with EODL). After all, if the basic concept for the other games doesn't ignite my interest, there's probably not much I can contribute anyway. I hope that a bit of quality input to a few games is better than a few sketchy comments on all of them.

Quote
Its an absolute pest for me to later find that I am taking someone's work much more seriously than even they were taking it!


I haven't suffered from that yet. I suppose I can't expect every game that's touted here to pan out into a releasable product, but if even one or two do and I've contributed to the development of the game even in a very small way, I'll be more than happy.

Anyway, I've benefited greatly from this forum, so it's only fair I give a bit back, I suppose.


Simon Hibbs
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Simon Hibbs
Ron Edwards
Global Moderator
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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2003, 05:52:45 AM »

Hi folks,

This thread has accomplished Ralph's goals, I think, so it's time to close it. If anyone wants to continue the discussion, start a new thread in Site Discussion and link to this one in the first post.

Best,
Ron
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