Played D&D3.5 for first time

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Gareth,

I think we're on the same page entirely.

Your point,

I'm suggesting that the GM's desire to "teach a lesson" is indicative of a gross collapse of the social contract. Its combative, not cooperative, the GM is setting out, through their power over the World, to show the players the error of their ways. Thats very disturbing.

exactly matches my interpretation upon reading the first few posts on this thread. That's why I asked about all the details of game-play, which Anthony provided so well. I was expecting a hideous dysfunctional kind of situation.

But then he provided such a different account of the players' responses and their experience of play! The only way I could interpret that was that the "lesson" (as I described it) was successful. So our mutual sense that the whole Social Contract may be kerflooey doesn't seem (at this point) to be the case.

So to me, anyway, the remaining question is whether the GM actually realizes what he "taught." If he was trying to teach something else, then he's in real trouble - he has a whole bunch of sharp-toothed, wickedly-grinning Gamists on his hands now, ready to treat any and all of his NPCs with interactive-tactics to the same degree that they treat bog-standard monsters with combat-tactics.

Best,
Ron

[Anthony I]

Ron,

I think in this case the GM accidently stumbled on to what the players actually want from the game- unfortunately this particular GM is most likely oblivious to this fact.  The dysfunctional element appears to be the GM in any case.  This particular GM really likes the challange of Gamist play, but he is interested as a player- not as the GM.  

Every game he runs has a short lifespan because of 2 main reasons; 1) the players quickly grow tired of the game- most likely from clashing play goals, maybe something else. 2) the GM, himself, grows tired of the game, giving reasons like "tired of always trashing the PCs" or "just needs a break" or "I'd rather play than GM".  Would either of these be Social Contract issues, or, more likely, GNS issues that the players and the GM don't know how to articulate?

[Jack Spencer Jr]

1. Perhaps we're talking about a phenomenon, not an isolated instance from one group. I have also seen instances of the "guest player" being the "GM's ringer" for purposes of betraying the regular player-characters, usually in the context of superhero games. Anyone else?

My ex-roommate told me about a Villians & Vigilantes game where he had a GM ring who acted all mysterious, always slipping off & such. He had convinced all of the players that that PC was a bad guy, when in actuality it was all smoke and the betrayer was an NPC. Had them convinced for weeks.

[contracycle]

Every game he runs has a short lifespan because of 2 main reasons; 1) the players quickly grow tired of the game- most likely from clashing play goals, maybe something else. 2) the GM, himself, grows tired of the game, giving reasons like "tired of always trashing the PCs" or "just needs a break" or "I'd rather play than GM".  Would either of these be Social Contract issues, or, more likely, GNS issues that the players and the GM don't know how to articulate?

I would say that this may well be symptomatic of a GNS clash, and may not be solvable.

Ron:
OK, I'm catching up.  I plead headcold.  I don't think that the players joyful experience of this session (and I'll bet money this action did comprise the bulk of a session) is going to be indicative of the players experiences of the rest of the game, because in this session the GM took very little part, and only stood as judge.  Player on player action is very different and I'd venture, as close to Narratavism as default Sim/Gam players are likely to get.  All the meaning of the encounter originates with the players.  Comments on that appreciated.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Gareth, I agree with you that the fizzles and other problems with this particular person are most likely GNS-driven. It fits the pattern I've observed throughout my role-playing history.

I also agree with you about the likely future events. So Anthony, keep us posted. You've provided a tremendous case study for us to work with.

Best,
Ron

[MachMoth]

This actually sounds very familiar.  Who do I know like that?  Oh yes, I see them every week. *sigh*

Tell me some things about the group in general (especially the DM):

1) What are their general reactions to other non-DnD RPG's?  Especially ones they HAVEN'T played yet.

2) How many of them played DnD as their first RPG?

3) What is their average Final Fantasy/Diablo to Tabletop RPG experience ration?

These may sound completely off base, but I'm starting to notice a trend, and I'm not sure what to make of it yet.