Gears & Spears (A little side project)

[Kirk Mitchell]

SHEEEEEIIIIT! This is one damn cool sounding game (making my own idea feel strangely inadiquate. Damn). Everything just seems to be clicking into place.

I love the bio-beasties (The Future is Wild ROX! ;))

I love the tribal oniks (would that by any chance be a shortening of bionikles?), and the structure of creating tribes and oniks sounds pretty cool. I wonder, has anyone played Fallout 2? The start is sort of what I am envisaging, the naive tribal venturing out into the Big World with the fate of the Tribe in its hands. Just find out how to do that "creamy" parts system, but the simple task resolution seems to work well for that.

The legend style character creation sounds really cool. I agree that the legend involving the character or the tribe should be written and the most important parts to the character be highlighted and turned into traits.

Well, however it turns out, I am definetly going to play this game. And don't worry about that big head, just buy a larger size of hat!

Kirk.

[Daniel Solis]

(would that by any chance be a shortening of bionikles?)

Absolutely. I make no attempt to hide that fact. :P Besides, it seemed like every variant or anagram of "robot," "android," and "cyborg" had already been taken.

The start is sort of what I am envisaging, the naive tribal venturing out into the Big World with the fate of the Tribe in its hands. Just find out how to do that "creamy" parts system, but the simple task resolution seems to work well for that.

I'm thinking about incorporating a mechanic that takes into account the tribes faith in its hero. Say you act in a manner that's contradictory to your mythos and some young hero-worshipping villager happens to see it. Where once you had a devoted fan, you now have a disillusioned cynic. Since I have the mythos giving heroes their traits, I wonder if a tribe's doubt or disappointment in the hero could actually take those traits away as well. Well, perhaps not actually take them away, so much as hinder their use.

Maybe an attribute called "Doubt" that increases when you don't act in accordance with your passions or when a non-hero witnesses you acting contradictory to your mythos. For every dot in Doubt, a die (or coin, if I go that route) is removed from your dice pool before you roll.

Well, however it turns out, I am definetly going to play this game.

Great! I can't wait to see how it runs once I get through this phase of development.

[Kirk Mitchell]

Hey, thats pretty cool. So that keeps the game in context with the mythos style character creation and gameplay, and keeps players from getting out of hand and out of character. Just hurry up and finish the damn thing so I can play it!

[Daniel Solis]

Well what do you think? Should I stick with the dice system as described initially or move towards the coin-based mechanic?

(The question's for everyone :) )

[Kirk Mitchell]

Hey Gobi,

My other posts were pretty rushed, (written in five minute breaks at work while the boss wasn't looking), I will now give a rundown of my (highly opiniative) view.

On the coins vs dice argument, I think that the coins would be the easiest. Everyone has coins, and the simple resolution mechanic lends itself perfectly to a coin based system. However, dice seem to be a bit "meatier" and more satisfying, but that may just be me. However, it is up to you in the long (and come to think of it) the short run.

And for the creamy choose-your-parts, I think that Lxndr has the right idea, with salvaging parts merely being the transferral of traits, less efficient than a shinelink (as you said, without a shinelink, the trait goes into tertiary status), but still taking bits off other Oniks. It works, and doesn't take the importance of shinelinks.

An ongoing argument seems to be about the tribal and caste system. I think you've got it right. Castes being a stage in character creation, similar to traits, while tribes being created through the mythos written by the players. What about the beliefs of the tribes, and the "circle of life" and the sleeping gods? How will that be implimented? I would think that all the circle of life be directly linked to the sleeping gods (or the metal gods, if need be).

Maybe some tribes worship the factories that endlessly and mindlessly churn out chunks of metal. Hey! Maybe these black trees are the factories, and they are what spawn the creation of a new Onik (like talking parts factories)! That may explain the need for the proper ettiquite when speaking to these talking trees, and further draw them into the culture of the Oniks and make them more important to the game world.

Hope it helps, and get a draft of the rules up here as soon as possible. My ramble!

Kirk

[anonymouse]

The 50/50 chance seems a bit.. I dunno. Extreme. I'm not sure what direction I want things skewed, though. What would be the purpose of having traits? Flip more coins? Mitigate complications? I like complications, though, and wouldn't necessarily want to see them lessened for any reason..

For starters, I don't think it has the right feel. Not unless you worked symbolic coins of some kind into the setting; then I'd be okay with it. Right now, though, it just seems really aesthetically inappropriate.

I had been thinking about some kind of "bit bucket" -- bits of salvaged anything that you draw from to resolve a conflict. I have no idea how that'd really -work- though, but it gets with my point of having a resolution mechanic that's true-to-setting. With something so rich and unique as this, it'd be a shame not to exploit it in every aspect of the game as possible.

[raga]

first off, like everyone else... thanks gobi, I'm not sure how I lived without this slightly nutty but wholely cool idea.

I like what people have been adding in here, especially on changing the d10 mechanic to the coin mechanic, coins does seem simpler to deal with.
but what I really wanted to add is about a "creamy" parts system. What about a separate category of traits specifically aimed at an onik's construction. ie we already have primary, secondary, and tertiary traits and these deal with the personality and learned/aquired traits of the onik.  what about adding "onik" traits, for example being able to choose 3 traits from the "parts" list during character creation. I'm not exactly sure how these traits might affect gameplay but they could add the ability for oniks to differentiate from one another based on a purely physical basis.

here's a very brief example:

Parts Traits
----------------
Crusher Arm
Tracks
Wheels
Legs
Sensors
Spear Arm
Spiky Bits
Extra Memory
Voice Modulator
etc...

then you might choose three at character creation time.

ok.. My onik has the traits, Tracks, Sensors, and Spear Arm. which tells us that my dude might be some sort of hunter.

or another might have Wheels, Extra Memory, and Voice Modulator. which leads us to believe he might be some sort of bard.

well I think you get the idea.

peace,
mike

[anonymouse]

I'm still not really feeling the kit-build characters. It is appealing, but probably not appropriate for the spirit of this particular game. Using the mythos-traits is probably just the best way to do that.

This is especially the case if Daniel wants to go with the 50/50 coin flip. There'd be no system reason to include a "voice modulator" or "wheels" or whatever, because they couldn't neatly modify the result (except to suddenly swing disaster to favour, which can be a pretty huge shift).

[Ben Lehman]

I'm still not really feeling the kit-build characters. It is appealing, but probably not appropriate for the spirit of this particular game. Using the mythos-traits is probably just the best way to do that.

This is especially the case if Daniel wants to go with the 50/50 coin flip. There'd be no system reason to include a "voice modulator" or "wheels" or whatever, because they couldn't neatly modify the result (except to suddenly swing disaster to favour, which can be a pretty huge shift).

BL>  I don't think parts need to give success.  They just need to give ability.

If you do not have a flying mechanism, you cannot fly.  If you do not have UV sensors, you cannot see in the dark.  If you only have one manipulator arm, you can only hold one thing at a time.  If you do not have a voice modulator, you cannot sing as sweetly as the juice of sunrise.

This is different from giving extra coins.

yrs--
--Ben

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Let's talk about dice and coins.

1. Coins are two-sided dice. That's the easy part.

2. Any die with an even number of sides can be a coin. 1-3 and 4-6 on a d6, odds vs. evens, whatever.

3. In play, "real" coins are a serious pain in the ass compared to dice. They're harder to pick up, they roll instead of landing in one spot, and depending on the light you have to squint and turn your head sideways to read them.

I suggest keeping your 50-50 mechanic, but specifying that any sort of die can be used, just go odd-even.

Best,
Ron

[anonymouse]

Ben,

Yyyyeahh.. but, why does there need to be a seperate system for that from the mythos traits? If I want my guy to fly, I include a line about battling a sky-shark over the Sandy Edge. If I've got a great voice, a line about how I made the Western Stones weep upon hearing my song.

[Ben Lehman]

If I want my guy to fly, I include a line about battling a sky-shark over the Sandy Edge. If I've got a great voice, a line about how I made the Western Stones weep upon hearing my song.

BL>  This is true.  I just like my robots with parts.

In the end, I suppose that there can be a lot of setting-based color (what sort of chasis do you have?  what sort of parts?  etc.) without any actual system effect.  Nonetheless, these amount to an important part of the game, even if they are not a part of the game system.

If I were to run the game, or if I run any game with this light of a system, I would have many things (among them the parts economy of the tribe and the individal 'niks) be very important to the game, even if they don't have a direct impact on conflict resolution.

Make any sense?

yrs--
--Ben

[raga]

I guess I agree with Ben on this one, about the parts..... If I were playing or running a game about mecha, even one like this that concentrates on the myth rather than the mech. I would still like to have something about the "bits" of my mech. Now granted, given how light the rules are there's no sense in making a huge deal out of what parts your onik has, but it's still cool, IMHO, to have some nod to the actual construction of your onik. As has been said above tho' this can be handled with the writing of you're onik's myth. So at the end of the day it really depends on the GM/Players how deep the game will delve into the actual "bits" of onik construction.

peace,
mike

[Daniel Solis]

And for the creamy choose-your-parts, I think that Lxndr has the right idea, with salvaging parts merely being the transferral of traits, less efficient than a shinelink (as you said, without a shinelink, the trait goes into tertiary status), but still taking bits off other Oniks. It works, and doesn't take the importance of shinelinks.

Cool. I'm fairly satisfied with that setup.

What about the beliefs of the tribes, and the "circle of life" and the sleeping gods? How will that be implimented?

If the Doubt mechanic becomes finalized, and I'm planning on it 'til something better hits me, I'll have any land not occupied by a tribe be neutral territory with regards beliefs. However, if you're a hero on another tribe's territory and their collective mythos and heroes are essentially contradictory to yours, then the doubt rating gets a major boost. Your limited in your capacity to do what your tribe considers heroic things while in an enemy tribe's territory. I haven't picked out the mechanics quite yet, but I'll get to work on that.

That may explain the need for the proper ettiquite when speaking to these talking trees, and further draw them into the culture of the Oniks and make them more important to the game world.

The proper social etiquette for the black trees may be a cool little section of the game's final form. I imagine it would be a very structured, step-by-step conversation, much like talking to Mother, the computer aboard the Nostromo in the movie Alien.

The 50/50 chance seems a bit.. I dunno. Extreme. I'm not sure what direction I want things skewed, though. What would be the purpose of having traits? Flip more coins? Mitigate complications? I like complications, though, and wouldn't necessarily want to see them lessened for any reason..

I'm hesitant to use coins now, actually. In theory they seemed pretty elegant, but I've tossed a couple coins around and it's a real pain in the ass. Much more than I ever expected. Dice are ideal for that sort of physicality in the system. Still searching for a numberless way to do 50/50 resolution, I took a bunch of d6s, a permanent marker, and just completely coated half the sides of each die with marker ink. Nah.

Aside from that, it's not the complication I'm missing, it's the subtelty. I like shades of grey with regards to task resolution. Still, this isn't technically "task" resolution, it's more like deciding who gets to say what happens. I'm almost tempted to use Jared Sorensen's system if he hadn't already used it. :P

Your doubts about the coin usage are valid, I share them as well, but I'd like something that has a fine balance between decisiveness and subtelty. I figure if a mechanic can't add flavor to a game, it should at least be invisible. I've obviously been unable to come up with a really flavorful mechanic, so I thought a 50/50 deal would be nice and straightforward. But you're right, it lacks subtlety.

ok.. My onik has the traits, Tracks, Sensors, and Spear Arm. which tells us that my dude might be some sort of hunter.

or another might have Wheels, Extra Memory, and Voice Modulator. which leads us to believe he might be some sort of bard.

I get what you mean, but like I mentioned earlier, I don't feel it's necessary to have abilities defining a role as much as it is to have a role define abilities. Instead of compiling all the necessary traits to become a hunter, why don't I just take "hunter" as a trait and define the dramatic relevance to suit the situations in which I expect to use them?

If it's particularly important that your character can fly, just take "flight" as a trait. The technical details are unimportant to the oniks, who take for granted their mechanical nature. Whether it's the Mask of Seventy Winds or a jetpack that grants your character the trait, the result is still the same. A flying onik.

If I were playing or running a game about mecha, even one like this that concentrates on the myth rather than the mech. I would still like to have something about the "bits" of my mech.

I suppose that just isn't the game I want to write, to be frank. Perhaps it's not just that oniks don't care about how they work, it's that I don't care how they work. "They just do. Let's move on." Y'know?

Part of what I thought was so cool about the Bionicle storyline is that they just seem completely oblivious to the fact that they're friggin robots. Super-advanced robots, apparently. So well-developed is their construction is that they don't need to regularly check on their hydrolics or various bits or what have you.

In other words, like I said in the beginning of the thread, it's a technology so advanced as to be indistinguishable from magic.

1. Coins are two-sided dice. That's the easy part.

2. Any die with an even number of sides can be a coin. 1-3 and 4-6 on a d6, odds vs. evens, whatever.

3. In play, "real" coins are a serious pain in the ass compared to dice. They're harder to pick up, they roll instead of landing in one spot, and depending on the light you have to squint and turn your head sideways to read them.

I suggest keeping your 50-50 mechanic, but specifying that any sort of die can be used, just go odd-even.

or half n' half. Whichever.

I'm considering something. Hm... The 50/50 thing is only a big deal when you have one die. In other words, when you're on your last legs anyway. Most of the time, you'll be in situations where more than one trait applies and you'll be rolling a bunch of dice. Essentially, further chances for you to successfully take control of the outcome of your actions. I'm not too sure about the probabilities on something like that, however. As you can probably tell by now, I'm not a very mechanically or mathematically minded designer.

Possible direction this could go:

Primary traits give or take away 3 dice, depending on the nature of their dramatic relevance. Secondaries are 2 dice, tertiaries 1 die. Just like what's already been established. The twist is that every die is a 50/50 chance for either you or the GM to decide the outcome. When several dice are rolled, whoever gets the most dice in their favor wins control. The hero always wins ties. Non-hero characters always lose ties.

So you describe your action up til the point where an outcome comes into question, or perhaps until your GM interrupts, whichever comes first. You roll. If the outcome is in your favor, you finish the narration of your action as normal. If in the GM's favor, he says the outcome of your action, but that's it. He doesn't say how your actions reached that outcome. It's your job to seal the deal in that regard.

There is a nine-notched sliding scale attribute on your character sheet. On the one end is Doubt. This describes how much your people have lost faith in your role as their hero. On the other end is Faith, which describes, aptly enough, their faith in your role as their hero. As you gain faith, doubt is reduced. As you gain doubt, faith is reduced. It'd look something like this:

Code Select Expand

Faith [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] Doubt

When you roll for the outcome of an action, faith is added to the roll if the action is appropriate for your mythos and passions. Say you had one die come up in your favor (1), with your faith (4, for example) the actual result would be 5 in your favor. Hopefully enough to put the entire roll in your favor.

For example:

You are Rugathi, courageous defender of the Shulai tribe in the southern marshes. The wetlands are being decimated by spikers, wandering beasts made of metal and spikes who devour other oniks. You promise your village that you shall return with the spiker's inards as a trophy for the elder chieftain. You venture into the spiker's lair, ready your spear, and attack fearlessly. The GM calls for a roll.

All totalled, the beneficially relevant traits have given you seven dice in your dice pool. You roll 'em. Two dice are in your favor, three are in the GM's favor. The GM can decide the outcome of the action if this were the final result of the die roll. Fortunately, this brave act is quite appropriate for your established mythos as a courageous defender of the Shulai. Further, your peoples' faith in you is a decent 4. Add 4 to your dice roll for a total of 6. (2 + 4 = 6) This puts the dice roll well within your favor.

You describe the spear plunging deep into a crack in a spiker's armor. Using your brute force, you use your spear as a lever to pry off its protective shell and you stab its insides mercilessly. Such is the fate of all those who threaten those under the protection of Rugathi.

If the action is contrary to your established mythos, then doubt is subtracted from your die roll. You are acting contrary to what everyone had believed you to be.

For example:

You are Rugathi, courageous defender of the Shulai. But you have failed.

The spikers are undeterred by your onslaught. Onward they roll through the wetlands, their unquenchable thirst for shine urging them towards the Shulai tribe. Ashamed, you admit your defeat to the Shulai and order an evacuation from their homeland.

The GM calls for a roll to see what the people do.

You have far fewer traits that would be beneficially relevant to ordering a retreat. Your dice pool is a scant 2 dice. Nevertheless, you roll them. They both come up in your favor! Unfortunately, since this action is contrary to your mythos of bravery and courage, doubt modifies this die roll. The doubt rating is 5, pushing the roll very much in the GM's favor.

The GM is faced with a decision now. He decides the outcome of Rugathi's plea to retreat. He can have the people revolt against their suddenly less-impressive hero. He can have them stand there, incredulous as to how Rugathi could have come home in defeat. Or...

The Shulai may have their brave defender to protect them, but in times of need the dwellers of the marsh are no cowards nor are they weaklings. No one, no spikers or beasts or spirits will move them from this, their ancestral home.

You can feel the tribe's shine building and warming around your rallying cry. However, instead of organizing a panicked evacuation, they shout back to you wise quotes from your mythos. Words of sage advice about facing adversity and never giving in to defeat. The stage has been set for a new chapter in the Shulai Mythos.

The Spiker Siege 8.9.1: A defeated Rugathi found victory in the hearts of Shulai.

Phew... that was more rambling than I had anticipated. But I hope it makes sense at least. More than that, I hope it adequately supports the highly narrative (narativist?) nature I'm going for.

[Daniel Solis]

Egads. It's amazing how unfocused a post can seem the day after you've written it. Here's a more succinct description of the new task resolution I'm considering.

Task Resolution v. 0.5
Dice
You can use any type of dice you'd like, so long as they're evenly numbered. One half of the die is considered the player side, the other half is the GM side. A 50/50 split.

Narration and Interruption
When you want to perform an action, just describe it and it happens, unless the GM interrupts. When that happens, it's time for the person who was interrupted to gather a dice pool and to decide who concludes the narration.

Dice Pool
All traits have a value associated with their rank of primary (3), secondary (2), or tertiary (1). For every beneficially relevant trait, add that number of dice to your dice pool. For every negatively relevant trait, remove that number of dice from your dice pool. Roll the remaining dice.

Result
Whoever has more dice in their favor gets to decide the outcome of the actions. A hero always wins ties. If the interrupted player wins the roll, he can conclude his description of his actions' outcome. If the GM or another player wins the roll, he concludes the action by describing a complication that prevents the hero from succeeding at this time. The GM cannot describe the character's reaction or actions, only introduce the complication.

Modifiers
Positive modifiers adjust the outcomes of rolls in your favor. Negative modifiers adjust the rolls to the opponent's favor. Modifiers are noted as +1, +2, +3, -1, -2, -3 and so on.

Another type of modifier is that which adjusts the dice pool itself by either increasing or reducing the number of dice in the pool. These modifiers are noted as +1d, +2d, +3d, -1d, -2d, -3d, and so on.

Mythos Tokens
Spending a mythos token results in an automatic success in your die roll. You are free to describe the results of your actions. You can also augment a line or add a new line of your mythos that reflects how you were able to do what you described. If a line of your mythos changes the nature of one of your traits, the affected trait is reduced to tertiary status and cannot be upgraded until the mythos once again includes it.

Faith and Doubt
Your hero has a dichotomous Faith/Doubt meter. As one side increases, the other decreases. The limit for both traits is 9 notches, at that extreme one side is rendered complely nil at a 0 rating.

Faith is relevant when performing heroic actions befitting your mythos while being witnessed by those who believe in your mythos, in other words, while in the presence of non-heroic members of your tribe. Faith grants an equal positive modifier to the results of your die roll. For example, a dice roll resulting in 4 added to your faith rating of 2 would make the official result 6. (4+2=6)

Doubt is relevant when performing heroic acts in the presence of non-heroic members of an enemy tribe. Doubt applies an equal negative modifier to the results of your dice rolls. For example, a die roll resulting in 6 adjusted by a doubt rating of 3 would reduce the official result to 3. (6-3=3)

Juicing
By spending a dot of juice, you can add a die to your dice pool. If you're completely out of juice, your body is paralyzed and you can only perform actions that do not require physical mobility. This does not include speaking, you can still communicate verbally even while completely out of juice.

Even while depleted of juice, you can still juice a die roll by spending shine dots instead. Every shine dot spent in this way adds 3 dice to your dice pool. Shine-juicing can only be done when completely depleted of normal juice.

(This might make for an interesting tribe who continuously starve themselves to attain what they believe to be true magical power. Sort of like a mix between ascetics and psionics maybe.)