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275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4283 Members Latest Member: - otto Most online today: 74 - most online ever: 429 (November 03, 2007, 04:35:43 AM)
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Author Topic: [MLwM] For Those Of Us D4-Deprived  (Read 4652 times)
Lxndr
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« on: September 12, 2003, 12:58:39 PM »

I own maybe three d4s, less than any other single die except the weird ones (d5, d7, etc).  My fellow gamers, I believe, own even less (I'm kind of a dice junkie).  This is, quite honestly, the single biggest stumbling block towards actually playing the game, at least for me.  Not to say that it's not a great mechanic, it is!  But I'm loathe to buy more of the little pyramids, and the game seems tied to them.  Using eights instead of fours feels like cheating, and is clumsy to boot (not to mention I don't own many eight siders either).  

So I've been playing with some numbers in my head, and this looks like a relatively reasonable d6-pool alternative.  But before I try running the game with this bastard monstrosity, I'd like to see what those who are much more experienced at the game (and at statistics) think of my teratism.  By the way, I don't know what changes, if any, this would require for the I/S/D dice ladder (I'm tempted to say "none").  Anyway, here you go:

Quote
When using D6s instead of D4s, count both the five AND the six as zero.  Add up all the other numbers.


This gives a slightly higher range, per die, but also a greater chance of a zero, per die (33% to 25%).  It's a crude solution, I admit, but the numbers seem sound in my head.  Is it an unworkable one?
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Alexander Cherry, Twisted Confessions Game Design
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Mike Holmes
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2003, 01:37:05 PM »

The expected value of your die is 1.666 as opposed to 1.5 for the d4 method. So these dice will have a slightly stronger effect relative to the bonus dice. Not a huge one, however. Given that it's perception of potence here, it'll probably work just fine.

If, along with this, you go to a d6, d8 , and d10 for the bonus dice it would definitely make these a little more attractive options than they are now in terms of numbers, but the perception of difference might not be there. Be interesting to see the outcome.

Mike
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Lxndr
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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2003, 01:55:35 PM »

Yeah, I originally considered going with adding up only odd numbers on the d6, which would give the same average of 1.5 per die as the four, but that seemed to make the zero too common (50%).  It felt cleaner to have a 33% zero instead of a 25% zero, and just swallow the higher average as the price to pay for moving to six-sided dice.

How do you mean the "perception of difference"?  If I roll six-siders, and move the I/S/D dice to 6/8/10 instead of 4/5/6, people will NOT perceive the difference as strongly?  Or...?
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Alexander Cherry, Twisted Confessions Game Design
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Mike Holmes
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2003, 02:02:41 PM »

If you move the dice to the new set, people won't tend to notice that they've gotten relatively more powerful, IMO, because the lowest die is the same for both the bonuses, and the regular system. They'd both be d6. It doesn't make sense mathematically, but sometimes players don't think that way. The bonus dice only cost player effort in narration, see, so there's no real way to measure that cost against the bonus. So players will tend to play such mechanics by "feel", rather than by math.

Mike
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Lxndr
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2003, 07:27:59 PM »

Hm.  I was tempted to keep the bonus dice at d4,d6,d8.

Would you recommend increasing them to 6,8,10?
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Alexander Cherry, Twisted Confessions Game Design
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Michael S. Miller
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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2003, 04:45:14 AM »

Quote from: Lxndr
I own maybe three d4s, less than any other single die except the weird ones (d5, d7, etc).  My fellow gamers, I believe, own even less (I'm kind of a dice junkie).  


Is it just me, or do the two bolded sections above confict with each other in some fundamental way?

Despite already owning a dozen d4's, when I bought MLwM at GenCon, I went to Crystal Caste and bought 10 of their awesome rectangular d4s expressly for this game, and I still paid less than this gem is worth. Honestly, when you look what Decipher, WotC, and the d20 publishers are charging for games these days, buying the right dice for your indie games is an economical indulgence. [/rant off]
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Lxndr
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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2003, 08:10:39 AM »

Well, I am only "kind of" a dice junkie (certainly in relation to the other gamers in my group).  In addition, my junkiness tends to show up in weird ways (I own poker dice of three different kinds, I've got my own Tali, I've got 30-sided alphabet dice, five siders, seven siders, etc.  Heck, I'm looking to buy a set of plaster-caste sheep's knucklebones).  

D4s, for some reason, have never really tripped my trigger (heck, I own more Tali than I do four-siders).  Yeah, I like dice, but...  Anyway, despite MLwM's wonderfulness, I'm not feeling primed to go out and purchase more than the paltry 3 I already own (though I'm sure I will eventually).  

Yet I do want to play this absolute gold mine of a game, so I went searching for alternatives, and found one.  Sure, the highs are a little higher, and the lows somewhat more favored (what with the increased chances of the zero), but I'm unconvinced that either minor change will be a detriment to the gameplay.

We'll find out when I run the game.
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Alexander Cherry, Twisted Confessions Game Design
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Bob McNamee
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« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2003, 10:39:57 AM »

Dicebot on Indie netgaming..... infinite d4's...

By Halloween time someone will have to run some of MLwM.
I'll take a stab at it, if no one else steps up...although I'd rather be a Player the first time.
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Bob McNamee
Indie-netgaming- Out of the ordinary on-line gaming!
Lxndr
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« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2003, 12:56:42 PM »

Oh heck yeah.  On indie-netgaming, d4s aplenty.

But in person... not so much.

Hmm.  Hallowe'en itself is on a friday.  Probably won't see too many indie-netgamers in the channel.
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Alexander Cherry, Twisted Confessions Game Design
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Bob McNamee
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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2003, 01:25:18 PM »

Yea...

I'm mean starting something in and around  then...not actually on the day (since I'll probably be off passing out candy...and/or helping kiddos with costume makeup etc)
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Bob McNamee
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mortmere
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2003, 08:50:36 PM »

Quote from: Michael S. Miller

Despite already owning a dozen d4's, when I bought MLwM at GenCon, I went to Crystal Caste and bought 10 of their awesome rectangular d4s expressly for this game, and I still paid less than this gem is worth.


rectangular d4s? these I need. the pyramid shape is ugly and awkward.
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diplomierter Bohemist
RdGkA
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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2006, 04:21:43 PM »

Hello!

When I read the rule "rolled 4s are discarded", I wasn't happy with it. It is not what one would call intuitiv.
Now I made some simple wooden D4s, numbered 1, 2, 3 and "blank".

http://makeashorterlink.com/?L55F255AC

Sum 'em up n done ;-)

regards
Ralf
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Paul Czege
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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2006, 09:53:58 AM »

Ralf,

Those are awesome!

Are they made of wood?

Paul
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Adam Dray
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« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2006, 11:23:35 AM »

You could also probably put a dab of paint on the 4's on commercial d4's. I suspect a little extra weight might mess with the "trueness" of the dice, but I question the trueness of a d4 made out of wood, too. For role-playing purposes, it probably doesn't matter that much, but it'd be interesting to run a chi-square test on your homemade dice.
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Adam Dray / adam@legendary.org
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RdGkA
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« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2006, 11:38:50 AM »

Those are awesome!
Thanks! :)
Quote
Are they made of wood?
Yes, 9mm x 9mm x 25mm, cut out of a square shaped Timber from a DIY-store, painted with my old Ral Partha miniature colors.

Ralf
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