Most attractive setting for female players

[Anthony I]

I'll be honest, I'm really lost as to what the actual question is for this thread- but I do know that all the generalizations I've seen about women wanting touchy-feely, or "humanised"... or whatever... games does not match my gaming experiences for the last 20 or so years, but especially for the last 5 years.  For the last 5, I've been playing with a group that has consisted primarily of women, ranging from ages 14-40, playing a range of games from D&D (2nd) to Deadlands to Paladin to WoD (Vamp and Were) to Cthulthu to...well you get the point.  In this time I've consistantly seen the female players not spend a minute more than the male players on issues like socializing or romance or any of the other "womenly" traits frequently ascribed to them.  So, I'm confused about this whole issue...or did I get off the track somewhere?  Why are the so few female players?  My opinion, your typical gamer teen/college guy wasn't trying to actively find female players, he was looking for someone to have sex with.

[xechnao]

My opinion, your typical gamer teen/college guy wasn't trying to actively find female players, he was looking for someone to have sex

Haha. Maybe but that should be irrevelant. I mean irrevelant with your product. If you want to make a product that is going to interest females you don't have to think like that. You have to think females should buy this product and/or play it, intependently if men would buy it or play it.Women could play it with other female frineds, but also male so we shouldn't bother to think about being used from the side eg of males towards the side of females for some scope.

About the settings you metioned I still see a lack of sci-fi interest. Indeed I asked my girlfriend (20 years old) about her literature interests last night and it was something like that. She always prefered the social problems with a background of any setting but sci-fi. About fiction films she enjoyed Indiana Jones and Interview with a Vampire a lot and wants now to see the Pirates of the Caribbean. But she doesn't want to see Terminator and Star Wars she dislikes. Although she liked Stargate film I could say that she stills doesn't like sci-fi because the film was of a more Indiana Jones feel. Finally I' ve showed Alita manga and even if it speaks about a girl and the social human problems she wasn't interest a bit in it propably because she saw all that ultra-tech action. Well all this doesn't mean a lot but I feel all the most influenced by this thread that female dislike the imagination of the evolution and application of super-technology in the society.

[Fade Manley]

About the settings you metioned I still see a lack of sci-fi interest. Indeed I asked my girlfriend (20 years old) about her literature interests last night and it was something like that. She always prefered the social problems with a background of any setting but sci-fi. About fiction films she enjoyed Indiana Jones and Interview with a Vampire a lot and wants now to see the Pirates of the Caribbean. But she doesn't want to see Terminator and Star Wars she dislikes. Although she liked Stargate film I could say that she stills doesn't like sci-fi because the film was of a more Indiana Jones feel. Finally I' ve showed Alita manga and even if it speaks about a girl and the social human problems she wasn't interest a bit in it propably because she saw all that ultra-tech action. Well all this doesn't mean a lot but I feel all the most influenced by this thread that female dislike the imagination of the evolution and application of super-technology in the society.

You know, you're making a lot of broad generalizations based on very few data points; as the saying goes, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". Quite frankly, it's bordering on the offensive. I find most fantasy boring and write, GM, and play in scifi games, but I'm not about to run around saying that all women really want science fiction games and find epic fantasy dull just because that shows up in my current experience.

While I do find it interesting to look at what women want in the hobby, it sounds more like you have a theory you want support for rather than looking for actual answers. You say that women don't like scifi, and then when talking about a woman you know who likes a scifi show, dismiss it as being "because the film was of a more Indiana Jones feel"?

Your girlfriend may not like science fiction. I happen to like science fiction. These are two data points and they are still not telling us anything about "what women want in an RPG", even if "women" could be judged as some single-minded mass with significantly common interests. Given that there are very few comprehensive surveys on this issue that anyone can proffer--and seems that those which do exist, people already have suggested--I can't really see what you're asking for beyond more people's anecdotal evidence, which consists of nothing more than personal experience. If I had to go by personal experience I would say that all male gamers seem to be interested in fantasy games and dislike scifi and horror games, but that would be rather inaccurate, no?

[taalyn]

Heather...

Thank you! That's exactly what was needed. My troup is a 60-40 mix of female to male, and what any one of the women wants out of the game changes from session to session. Same with the guys.

What I think you should do, X, is simply design your game so that any particular theme a group likes can come into focus. Magic/science, social intrigue, combat, heroism - these are all easily doable. Some systems make one or the other more significant by how they're presented in the rules.

But now I'm getting into my own pet projects, so I'll shut up. It's not on topic...

Aidan

[xechnao]

About the settings you metioned I still see a lack of sci-fi interest. Indeed I asked my girlfriend (20 years old) about her literature interests last night and it was something like that. She always prefered the social problems with a background of any setting but sci-fi. About fiction films she enjoyed Indiana Jones and Interview with a Vampire a lot and wants now to see the Pirates of the Caribbean. But she doesn't want to see Terminator and Star Wars she dislikes. Although she liked Stargate film I could say that she stills doesn't like sci-fi because the film was of a more Indiana Jones feel. Finally I' ve showed Alita manga and even if it speaks about a girl and the social human problems she wasn't interest a bit in it propably because she saw all that ultra-tech action. Well all this doesn't mean a lot but I feel all the most influenced by this thread that female dislike the imagination of the evolution and application of super-technology in the society.

You know, you're making a lot of broad generalizations based on very few data points; as the saying goes, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". Quite frankly, it's bordering on the offensive. I find most fantasy boring and write, GM, and play in scifi games, but I'm not about to run around saying that all women really want science fiction games and find epic fantasy dull just because that shows up in my current experience.

While I do find it interesting to look at what women want in the hobby, it sounds more like you have a theory you want support for rather than looking for actual answers. You say that women don't like scifi, and then when talking about a woman you know who likes a scifi show, dismiss it as being "because the film was of a more Indiana Jones feel"?

Your girlfriend may not like science fiction. I happen to like science fiction. These are two data points and they are still not telling us anything about "what women want in an RPG", even if "women" could be judged as some single-minded mass with significantly common interests. Given that there are very few comprehensive surveys on this issue that anyone can proffer--and seems that those which do exist, people already have suggested--I can't really see what you're asking for beyond more people's anecdotal evidence, which consists of nothing more than personal experience. If I had to go by personal experience I would say that all male gamers seem to be interested in fantasy games and dislike scifi and horror games, but that would be rather inaccurate, no?

Haha if you feel offended I suggest you change page. I just posted a personal experience of mine on the matter and what I seem to be thinking about it. It's my right, no?
I like sci-fi too. I have lots of friends that I know they like it but are all male. Indeed I have no female friend that likes sci-fi. I think I never saw in cinema a female group while a sci-fi movie: latest one I saw was matrix-reloaded(let's consider it sci-fi). I saw male groups, couples and father with son. This alone doesn't say a lot but if the most around here agree and share this common base then it does add some bricks in the wall.

[Fade Manley]

Haha if you feel offended I suggest you change page. I just posted a personal experience of mine on the matter and what I seem to be thinking about it. It's my right, no?
I like sci-fi too. I have lots of friends that I know they like it but are all male. Indeed I have no female friend that likes sci-fi. I think I never saw in cinema a female group while a sci-fi movie: latest one I saw was matrix-reloaded(let's consider it sci-fi). I saw male groups, couples and father with son. This alone doesn't say a lot but if the most around here agree and share this common base then it does add some bricks in the wall.

xechnao, you're missing the point. I'm not saying that you can't post a personal experience; however, I am saying that your personal experience does not constitute enough data to make broad generalizations as you seem to wish to do. Your personal experience in what your friends like and who goes to what movies you've seen recently tells us only that your female friends like certain things and that in the place you've gone to movies during those particular showings that there might have been a particular demographic. It does not say much, if anything, relevant about all women and their preference in RPGs, or even necessarily about most women and their preferences.

Look, people can toss back and forth anecdotes all day ("My girlfriend hates scifi!" "Well, my girlfriend loves scifi!" "My girlfriend is completely indifferent!" "I went to a showing of Star Wars that had only women watching it!" "No woman I've ever spoken to would ever play RPGs in the first place, so obviously all women hate all RPGs!") but it's still not going to answer your question. All it's going to do is pile up a bunch of anecdotes.

[xechnao]

So none should ever speak of his personal experiences or even bother compile a statiscal interview questionaire brochure. No, this is not the right spirit. I understand that the practical possibilty of this forum is limited to an extent but we can still try to make the best of it.

[AnyaTheBlue]

So none should ever speak of his personal experiences or even bother compile a statiscal interview questionaire brochure. No, this is not the right spirit. I understand that the practical possibilty of this forum is limited to an extent but we can still try to make the best of it.

Sigh.

Xechnao, what exactly is your goal with this thread?

Genre is only one of many many factors that influences anybody to like (or dislike) anything.

For any given genre, you can find both men and women who like and dislike it.

For any given style of play you can find both men and women who like and dislike it.

For any given set of rules mechancis you can find both men and women who like and dislike it.

For any given combination of the above qualities, you can find both men and women who like and dislike it.

I think Heather's point is that you seem to be approaching this topic with the point of view that genre is the important thing, and you want to get some sort of idea of the general distribution of female interest in rpgs based on genre alone.

I (and I suspect most of the rest of the people who have answered you) think this is naive and borderline offensively stupid (I'm not trying to be antagonistic or put words in anybody's mouth, I'm just trying to describe my impressions of what you are trying to say).

I am a very atypical woman in many respects.  But I started playing RPGs with D&D, just like lots of other people.  Some games I play because I like the people I'm playing with.  Some games I play because I like the mechanics.  Some games I play because I like the setting or genre or whatever.  Some games have all of those things going for it.

It's not so clear cut as finding a single genre, set of mechanics, game focus, or anything of the sort that will appeal to the mysterious group known as 'females'.

If you reread my earlier post, you'll notice I said that what I was relating was an over-generalization, but that it sort of lends itself to categorizing two different sorts of people.  Both men and women can fall into both of those categories.  It's not a binary "guys over here, girls over there" sort of thing.  It's almost never that simple.

As Anthony sort of alluded to, one of the reasons there aren't more women gaming is probably one of culture.  Members of 'typical' gaming culture frequently do not socialize well with anybody, let alone with women.  Part of that sort of socialization skill is what Taalyn touched on -- structure your game so that you can provide the players with the things they are looking for, instead of providing a specific set of things you are interested in and only ending up with players who are interested in those exact same things.  And by 'things' I mean genre, setting, levels of socialization, nuts-and-bolts, characterization, moral conundrums, etc, etc, etc.  Pay attention and be sensitive to what your players are interested in, and give it to them, regardless of whether those players are men or women.  Provide a mix of what each of them finds fun and what you find fun.  Doing this requires getting to know your players as people, and actually being able to figure out what they find as fun, and what they find offensive.

So, what are you trying to determine or discuss with this thread?

Are you trying to get anecdotes about what genres have lots of women playing them?

Are you trying to get anecdotes about what sorts of mechanics the games that most women play have?

Are you trying to figure out why there aren't more women playing RPGs?  Are you trying to figure out why there aren't more women playing in your games?

Are you trying to figure out how to change your own games to attract women to play in them?

If you can't answer this clearly, I'm not seeing a lot of point in continuing this discussion, because what I've read up till now seems to indicate that you have a pet theory you don't seem to want to explain, yet you are looking for validation that you're right.

I apologize in advance if this post has been overly harsh or offensive.  I'm just trying to be as clear as I can.

[xechnao]

So none should ever speak of his personal experiences or even bother compile a statiscal interview questionaire brochure. No, this is not the right spirit. I understand that the practical possibilty of this forum is limited to an extent but we can still try to make the best of it.

Sigh.

Xechnao, what exactly is your goal with this thread?

Genre is only one of many many factors that influences anybody to like (or dislike) anything.

For any given genre, you can find both men and women who like and dislike it.

For any given style of play you can find both men and women who like and dislike it.

For any given set of rules mechancis you can find both men and women who like and dislike it.

For any given combination of the above qualities, you can find both men and women who like and dislike it.

I think Heather's point is that you seem to be approaching this topic with the point of view that genre is the important thing, and you want to get some sort of idea of the general distribution of female interest in rpgs based on genre alone.

I (and I suspect most of the rest of the people who have answered you) think this is naive and borderline offensively stupid (I'm not trying to be antagonistic or put words in anybody's mouth, I'm just trying to describe my impressions of what you are trying to say).

I am a very atypical woman in many respects.  But I started playing RPGs with D&D, just like lots of other people.  Some games I play because I like the people I'm playing with.  Some games I play because I like the mechanics.  Some games I play because I like the setting or genre or whatever.  Some games have all of those things going for it.

It's not so clear cut as finding a single genre, set of mechanics, game focus, or anything of the sort that will appeal to the mysterious group known as 'females'.

If you reread my earlier post, you'll notice I said that what I was relating was an over-generalization, but that it sort of lends itself to categorizing two different sorts of people.  Both men and women can fall into both of those categories.  It's not a binary "guys over here, girls over there" sort of thing.  It's almost never that simple.

As Anthony sort of alluded to, one of the reasons there aren't more women gaming is probably one of culture.  Members of 'typical' gaming culture frequently do not socialize well with anybody, let alone with women.  Part of that sort of socialization skill is what Taalyn touched on -- structure your game so that you can provide the players with the things they are looking for, instead of providing a specific set of things you are interested in and only ending up with players who are interested in those exact same things.  And by 'things' I mean genre, setting, levels of socialization, nuts-and-bolts, characterization, moral conundrums, etc, etc, etc.  Pay attention and be sensitive to what your players are interested in, and give it to them, regardless of whether those players are men or women.  Provide a mix of what each of them finds fun and what you find fun.  Doing this requires getting to know your players as people, and actually being able to figure out what they find as fun, and what they find offensive.

So, what are you trying to determine or discuss with this thread?

Are you trying to get anecdotes about what genres have lots of women playing them?

Are you trying to get anecdotes about what sorts of mechanics the games that most women play have?

Are you trying to figure out why there aren't more women playing RPGs?  Are you trying to figure out why there aren't more women playing in your games?

Are you trying to figure out how to change your own games to attract women to play in them?

If you can't answer this clearly, I'm not seeing a lot of point in continuing this discussion, because what I've read up till now seems to indicate that you have a pet theory you don't seem to want to explain, yet you are looking for validation that you're right.

I apologize in advance if this post has been overly harsh or offensive.  I'm just trying to be as clear as I can.

This thread is started to study the genre only question in grounds of female approach, that is genre approach indipendently from the other factors, period.
What you say is common ground to me and overly-repeated on this thread. It is also overly repeated what the scope of this thread is. :(
Again if you find this offensive please flip your way out of it.
Or should it be considered it's just flames because of the nature of females? :)

"If you reread my earlier post, you'll notice I said that what I was relating was an over-generalization, but that it sort of lends itself to categorizing two different sorts of people.  Both men and women can fall into both of those categories.  It's not a binary "guys over here, girls over there" sort of thing.  It's almost never that simple."

So what do those statistical studies are good to make?

"Are you trying to figure out how to change your own games to attract women to play in them?"

That's it* :) . To play, buy, promote them. Actually I've allready said that :(

*Actually my games not as my gaming sessions but as my game products. This is why I can't find any good in the advice to get to know my players as people over this matter. I am only interested in the magiority of population tendencies, I am only interested in the most generalized and generic rules if there can be found any. Maybe at first gathering a bunch of peoples knownledge could seem an irrelevant gathering of anecdotes but in the end there is very good propability you get to achieve some new knowledge either way.

[AnyaTheBlue]

his thread is started to study the genre only question in grounds of female approach, that is genre approach indipendently from the other factors, period.
snip
Actually my games not as my gaming sessions but as my game products. This is why I can't find any good in the advice to get to know my players as people over this matter. I am only interested in the magiority of population tendencies, I am only interested in the most generalized and generic rules if there can be found any. Maybe at first gathering a bunch of peoples knownledge could seem an irrelevant gathering of anecdotes but in the end there is very good propability you get to achieve some new knowledge either way.

Okay, this makes more sense.

Here's my take on an answer:

The genre of a game has little or no affect on whether a game is attractive to female players in my experience.

The key, in my opinion, is to design a game not with features intended to specifically appeal to women, but to design a game which has a wide variety of different modes of conflict and play.  If there are lots of ways to have fun with a game, then lots of different people (both male and female) will be able to find, make, or have fun playing it.

The biggest problem in this regard in the US is probably that dysfunctional male uber-geek D&D culture is widely considered synonymous with the culture of all gaming (outside of LARPS and Vampire, which have a different connotation), and that culture has a connotation of being 'girl-unfriendly'.

I hasten to add that this has little or nothing to do with the specifics of the system mechanics or genre (although the cheesecake doesn't help any, here), and more to do with the socialization of many gamers and their comfort and maturity in mixed-gender settings (I still shudder at the male player running a female elven cleric with 18 charisma who wore chainmail miniskirts and flirted constantly with male NPCs -- Ah, high school!).  The history of RPGs with media and religious institutions in the US hasn't helped any, either (I had friends whose parents burned their D&D rulebooks in the fireplace, and the like, over religious concerns -- Actually, on a tangent, I had a (male) friend in college tell me that when he walked by a group of us playing any RPG down in the dorm basement he sensed the presence of palpable Evil hanging over the whole thing.  It's not just women who are turned off by gaming, and it doesn't always have anything to do with the reality of gaming that those of us who are gamers experience, either.)

To sum up -- what I'm saying is that focusing on genre, either statistically or informally, isn't going to actually help you much in designing game products that women will magically be interested in buying in my opinion and experience.

Why do you think it will?

[Jonathan Walton]

Um, to summerize what many people are saying: you can't make games for a specific gender.  You make games for a specific kind of audience, and if women happen to make up a larger portion of that audience than men, you might have a "female-friendly" game (but that's a horrible term, *blech*), but that doesn't mean much in an 80% male hobby.

For example, games that have been typically considered "female friendly," such as Nobilis, Changeling, most LARPs, Castle Falkenstein, etc. still have majority male consumers, in my experience.  Hang out on the Nobilis mailing list and you find mostly guys.  However, there are significantly more women involved than would be in a D&D or even Vampire game.  You just swing the balance a bit towards the other direction.  

If you talk to Michael about his HeartQuest audience, I think you'll find the same thing.  Note that HeartQuest isn't a game specifically targeted at a female audience, even though its based on comics that, in Japan, are specifically targeted at a female audience.  In Japan, women make up a significant portion of comic readers and there are traditions that divide things into "boy comics" and "girls comics" and then "general comics."  In roleplaying, we have "boys games" and...  Well, we have "boys games," and ever so often someone will make one for a mixed audience.  That's the point that the industry is at.  There's a similar situation with comics, if you're paying attention to developments in that industry.

Personally speaking, I'm running a game with all female players right now, where I've got the only penis in the room.  And it ROCKS!  Why?  Because playing with players who aren't traditional geek-out sexually-frustrated power-crazed gamers is such a breath of fresh air.  Don't think I'll ever go back.  But again, I didn't write up my campaign in a way that was specifically designed to appeal to women, but women were mostly the ones who expressed interest in it (we did have one other guy).

Honestly, thinking in generalizations is bound to get you in trouble.  Pick an aesthetic and go with it.  People will respond as they will.

[M. J. Young]

Anecdotes

Anecdotes are going to tell you nothing, ultimately. Here are mine.

The first gaming group was two couples--two girls, two guys--and we picked up a third couple intermittently. In the D&D game, the first RPG the group played (in our mix of card, board, electronic, and other games), one girl played an elven fighter/magic-user, one a human cleric, and one a hobbit thief--nothing similar between them. However, the male party leader decided they needed horses, and the girls went crazy over the horses. We could conclude that for girls to like games, you need to give them horses. They knew the size, color, markings, gender, tack and harness and vestment designs of those horses. Girls like horses; at least, that's my experience. The guys didn't care near as much.

We picked up a couple of science fiction games--Gamma World, Metamorphosis Alpha, Star Frontiers. One of the couples didn't play any of the sci-fi games. One of the girls who did play didn't enjoy playing the Gamma World game which her boyfriend ran; I often found it a very harsh game, but kept plugging at it. She did enjoy the others. The other girl, my wife, seemed to enjoy it. She also ran both of the other sci-fi games, brilliantly well, and enjoyed doing so enough that she ran a private Star Frontiers game for me. So we find that a third of our D&D audience wasn't interested in sci-fi, a third found some of it less than enjoyable, and a third was very interested in it--but no gender bias there.

I've got two girls in my current online game. One of them apparently prefers fantasy; she likes elves and magic, and talking about these things. I don't know how she feels about sci-fi, at least not yet, so I'm exploring this side of things. The other loves space opera--Star Trek, B5, Star Wars, she's at home in this, it's her element. She enjoyed being on a space ship. She's also really getting into being a spy now that her space flight has ended, and reports playing the latest Bond video game with her brother.

I'm afraid you've got nothing here. You've got information that proves that people are individuals, and although you can collectively make assertions about them, they don't always work so well when pressed.

As my brother loves to say, there are two kinds of people in the world: those who divide all the people in the world into two kinds, and those who don't. Yes, there are differences between men and women--they just aren't really very clear in something so general as "genre". It isn't whether girls like sci-fi, but what kind of sci-fi they tend to prefer. There's your question--not whether you do sci-fi, but what do you do with it to make it friendly to people who don't think quite the same way about it as you do.

Multiverser to a large degree lets the referee decide what the world is going to be like, but leaves it to the player to decide what the game is going to be about. Girls and guys alike find what interests them and pursue that. If you allow them to do that, you'll appeal to a broader audience. The details of setting don't matter.

--M. J. Young

[xechnao]

I don't want to make a game for a specific gender. I just want to make a game less unfriendly possible for any gender. Since what I've been knowing and hearing is for example that girls that play d&d count fewer than the girls who play Vampire, or the girls that read fantasy literature count fewer in respect of the male readers of fantasy I supposed that even setting-wise could matter in a broad and generalized point of you the attraction in regards of female players(my interest heavies particularlly the female case since I understand that male attractivity to rpgs isn't the issue left behind in respect of the other*).
Do you find this so paranoid and out of reality?

*rpgs is an 80% male hobby today.

[Jonathan Walton]

Do you find this so paranoid and out of reality?

Honestly... a little.

I don't think it's the setting that attracts or drives female players away from a specific game, I think it's the culture that gets built up around it.  Many female players would love D&D, provided they could consistantly play with people who weren't socially underdeveloped or on power trips.

You're not going to be able to find a setting that magically appeals to women.  Any effort to "figure out what women want" seems a bit ridiculous.  Just build a culture around your game that's welcoming and supportive of female players.  Now, some aspects of a welcoming environment can certainly be reflected in your setting (for instance, Trollbabe), but that's not necessarily required.  In fact, many people might take settings "specifically tailored for them" to be rather condescending and offputting, not just women.

[damion]

<Observation> I should probably know better than to read this </observation>

I think the issue here is females in general vs females as molded by our culture.
To appeal to the first, just take the advice on the thread(do what you want, provide diversity,
avoid offencive stuff like cheesecake). To make a game that appeals to female culture would be
difficult as, as games traditionally appeal to male culture(which is offputting to most females).


Although Vampire LARP apparently managed.

Unfortunatly, I'm not sure how you manage the 'culture' of a game, as this would probably
depend on  the people in an area, although you could try to avoid appealing to cultural segments you don't want.