Gen Con So Cal -- Can I answer any questions?

[Gordon C. Landis]

As I understand Peter (and Ron's right, major thanks to Peter for starting this discussion and sharing his knowledge and perspective), an "indie room" wouldn't work.  But maybe a demo room.  Anyone willing to abide by the rules can be there.  Essentially none of the loud, splashy promo stuff from the exhibit hall - just people, paper, and dice.  Or cards.  Or boards, with tokens/miniatures.  You get the idea.

Financially, if this demo space is cheaper (and smaller slices are available), I guess the con needs to make sure it doesn't lead to an exodus from the exhibition hall.  The Forge isn't the ONLY people that run demo's in the exhibit hall . . .   Maybe sales in the demo room can ONLY be what is being demoed (1-3 'books' per 4'x4' table? Table/day?)  So companies with a large catalog and/or many supplements still need to be in the exhibit hall to move a reasonable volume of merchandise.  I'm not sure how easy that would be to enforce - perhaps the central purchasing point (a service that certainly warrants payment from the demo-ers, either via a percentage on sales or indirectly in the raw space rental fee) has a list of what can be "for sale" in that room, and that's all they sell.  Other people trying to sell (the demoed game or something else) get the  . . . consequences.

I guess the idea is, split the demo space off from the exhibit space.  Bigger companies will choose to be in both (heck, Ron-as-Adept-Press might be big enough for that to make sense for him) - and demos are still permitted in the exhibit hall -  but smaller folk will go the demo-only route, and more intensive demos from anyone are better suited to the seperate space.

And yes, I agree with Matt - the ability for a like-minded group of people like us Forge-crazies to "band together" in this demo room would be important.  So that if 10 different games want to share a 5 table spot in the demo room, that should be possible.  As long as the 5 tables are paid for (via up-front fees and/or percentage of sales, whatever), that should work for the con.

Another possible way of organizing this is the convention-long "demo event" - maybe the con could set up a room this way, and the event tickets could reduce the price to the demoing companies even further?

My experience at the Forge booth the last two GenCon's tells me that the combination of demos, sales, and a group enthusiasm for a set of games really works, but other than the raw traffic concentration, the exhibit hall environment (in terms of both aesthetics and economics) is a less than ideal location for doing that.

Gordon

[M. J. Young]

Welcome to the Forge, Peter; it's good to see you.

I hate to admit that I've never, in twenty-three years of gaming, been to GenCon. Life has not been so constituted that I have ever had time and money simultaneously in all that time. I will remedy that one day; I'm beginning with east coast cons, where travel time is lower and I can find friends or family to provide free housing to cut costs.

Thus I'm speaking from what I've read here, mostly.

It seems to me that one of the big problems cited has not been adequately addressed: the conflict between booths that have loud video games, multimedia presentations, and sound systems and those trying to rely on human contact. I think the solution to this may be rather simple to implement: divide the exhibit hall into two sections, and state specifically that any exhibitor using any electronic or multi-media presentations or attention grabbers which might be distracting (including but not limited to video or television systems, sound amplification, amplified music....) must be located in section one; those who will not be using such equipment and may opt to be located in section two if they desire. Charging the same price is certainly reasonable; you could even justify charging more for those who require electrical power for their equipment (at some point the Con pays for that, even if it's indirectly).

It might even work (as well or better) to have two exhibit halls distinguished by this feature. Electronic video games would automatically be in the one, along with the variety of other egregiously loud presenters--but the other would not be some ghetto of independent game companies, as certainly there would be many exhibitors who find the electronic noise distracting and counterproductive to their efforts. That's more a question of the facilities, though.

Certainly the "quiet" room would still be noisy and distracting in some ways. You'd have your hawkers whose ability to project obviates the need for a sound system; whether live music would be allowed in the quiet room would probably have to be considered; gamers are going to be noisy. But at least you would have determined that those who are intent on being loud will have to compete with others who are equally intent on being loud, and those who are not won't.

Anyway, it's an idea that addresses the problem. I hope it helps.

--M. J. Young

[Luke]

while michael's points are all entirely valid, let's try to stay on topic:

what can bigger conventions (like GenCon) do to help support and encourage the presence of indie rpgs?

-L

(don't mean to be bossy, i just take my role as moderator seriously!)
:)

[Lxndr]

Ron (I think) said this one, which I didn't see addressed in Peter's comments directly:

* Encourage and facilitate booth sharing.  

Imagine if, say, just two of the independent game companies at GenCon Indy, each with their own single-slot booth, chose instead to throw their lot in with "The Forge Booth".  That would have doubled the size of the Forge booth (Ron got a double-size endcap, I think, this would've made it a quad).  More room for tables, more "barkers" (and thus potentially more sales), and a smaller price per company, after it was split between them all.

Maybe I just have delusions of grandeur, but I like this idea.  Of course, it would need more than /just/ GenCon to make it happen, but if GenCon could encourage and facilitate "seeking booth-sharing" type stuff, that'd be a step...

[Ron Edwards]

Ha! That reminds me. (Thanks Alexander)

In 2001, Adept Press had its own single-space booth. In 2002, I shared a three-booth space with Key 20 Publishing for the first Forge Booth. When two or more companies share a booth at GenCon, the current rules state that one of them is the primary; that one company submits the application with the other two applications attached.

And all that is well and good ...

... except that only the primary company gets the "points" for purposes of booth position privileges. In the case of 2002, that was Jason. What these points do is, over the years, give you some clout for future booth position requests (close to the front, over to the right, whatever). I should make it clear that Jason and I split the basic booth costs, but that I picked up most of the secondary costs concerning furniture and similar.

So for 2003, the only points I had (as I was the primary this year) came from my little weenie booth in 2001. Which is why we were in the back part of the hall and (if post-GenCon talk can be trusted) missed about 30% of the traffic, and why we had to be next to Upper Deck's megaphone monstrosity, and so on.

Now, is this some grand injustice that I'm complaining about? No. The point system has to work in some way, and someone has to be next to the big loud booths. And arguably if I cared enough about the points for Adept Press, then Adept Press should have been the primary in 2002. (As I recall, it was something of a toss-up and we didn't care about it much at the time.)

But I'm interested in alternate point policies, or whether something applies like this: say I'd told GenCon, "Hey, I want the points from last year's booth, and here's Jason's confirmation that it's OK with him." This is hypothetical, i.e., I didn't do this and Jason didn't confirm it, etc. Just an idea. Would GenCon say, "Oh, why look, Adept Press, you have way more points now."

Notice all the potential problems. Open up something like this, and you'd have to employ a whole new staff member to negotiate and adjudicate each situation, and each situation would be compounded by the companies who were best buddies last year arguing about who gets the points this year. Sure, lots of trouble; I know. But let's discuss it.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

Internally the matter of points could be settled by having the company that recieves them pay a somewhat higher proportion, right? I mean, that can be negotiated amongst ourselves without getting the GenCon people involved. Consideration would be given to who actually had plans for the following year as part of the negotiation.

I think it would be a true beaurocratic mess to have the points be transferable, and one open to abuse.

OTOH, if the points could be divided up between the participants at the Con, when registering for the year for which they'd be recieved, that would be simple. Instead of saying Adept gets 10 points, say that we want Adept to get 5 and Key 20 to get 5. Or whatever distribution is sensible for the attendees, or was negotiated per the above.

Could that be done?

Mike

[Michael S. Miller]

I also like the idea of a demo room run similar to the art show. To address the "fairness" angle, make it maximum of one 4' x 4' table per company and bill it as the "Variety Demo Room." Have the program book play it up as something different under the sun. Keep a prohibition on noise level and mulitmedia and sure, WotC, WizKids and UpperDeck can all have a table in there with us, if they want. But Just One Table, each. Could become a major stopping point for the jaded con-goer.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Here are some more thoughts and musings.

ONE
The idea of a field of small tables, each presided over by a confused, isolated, miserable, and now woefully-exposed small-press publisher, is incredibly depressing. I consider this idea to be dreadful; it would make a ghetto out of independents. Think of most of the first-time and independent publishers at GenCon - huddled in their booths, smiling sheepishly at passers-by, trying to feel good at four sales a day. Now put them all in a big open field, one small table each.

Now try inspiring a Forge-style dynamic at your table in the middle of that.

Forget that.

TWO
Sound pollution is turning out to be a serious problem at GenCon. If Upper Deck wants to create an echo-y sound-stage out of their booth area, fine ... but amplifiers, microphones, and continuously-rolling film loops extend off of that space and into others' space. If you have to raise your voice for a customer in your booth area to hear you, then the other booth has effectively damaged your sales.

This isn't about "competition." It's about direct sabotage, frankly. I might as well go over to other booths and rip down their displays, as project a movie soundtrack or exercise some kind of microphone activity next to them.

I suggest that amplified sound levels be strictly enforced and, perhaps, certain sorts of sound systems simply be prohibited.

THREE
Here's an idea. Pick some space in the con area with fairly heavy traffic but without some other company's commercial activity going on.

Four people run up. Very quickly, they unfold a card table, put a cloth over it, unfold chairs, and open a notebook. They slam into a role-playing scene, with great verve and enthusiasm, playing for about 20 minutes. If anyone sidles up, they get a pamphlet, nothing more. Then, just as quickly and with no discernable signal, and most especially no explanations, they fold up, pack up, and run off.

The pamphlet includes a map to the Forge booth and a brief blurb about the game being played.

Peter, is this allowed? Or more accurately, is it not prohibited? Notice that it's not disruptive toward others' sales, unlike the occasional LARP group that wanders through the exhibit hall (and whom I always shoo away from my booth, to their amazement).

Best,
Ron

[PeterAdkison]

abzu writes:

My one concern, where i break with most everyone else here, is that it should be a protected zone. Wizkids and Mongoose and WoTC shouldn't be allowed in. Not that I want to create prejudice or divide, but in "free market competition" we can't compete. We can't front the money or resources necessary to edge out Wizkids. Because a it isn't really a "free market." The buy-in is thousands of dollars. And a company like that can afford a booth. Individual game designers, generally, cannot. Having a cheaper, smaller option for said indies provides them the opportunity to participate without going broke. $100-$200 is relatively equivalent in our budgets as $10k is for WoTC.

One way to solve this problem is for us to have a rule that says exhibitors who buy a booth can't buy a table in the small company area.

Mike Holmes writes:

Jay (Rio Grande) I believe just reserves a jillion slots. The con then nicely puts them all together in one spot, and they theoretically run them on the normal schedule. In reality he just grabs you as you go by and asks for generics.

As long as he's charging generics, that's fine, but I want you to know he's skirting a gray area here.

I really shouldn't, but I have to respond to the comments made about Rio Grande Games. This is a company that refuses to purchase a booth or advertisement at Gen Con, although they've clearly gone past the level of a small independent publisher. Their whole goal is to get what they can out of the convention without spending anything. That's a fine goal for a publisher to take--I'm not saying it's immoral or unethical or anything like that. But, I hope you'll understand that from my position as a convention organizer, they're about as low on my priority list as you can get and I have to object on principal if we're holding them up as a great example of how to work a convention if you care at all about how your convention hosts will view your activities. (I will say that I respect Jay for being very forthright in coming to me and letting me know that he had no interest in a booth, advertisement, or sponsorship but just wanted to know how he could manipulate our system to get his games demoed for free.)

Matt Snyder writes:

From my perspective, the success of the Forge booth is the result of a critical mass of 1) staff 2) games 3) social energy level and excitement about indie viability. Not only were we selling because we had others helping us with "man-hours" in customer service and practical matters. We were selling well because we had a social verve unparalleled in any other small or moderate publisher's booth on its own. I argue strongly that we must have a common geography on the convention floor.

I realize this is probably very obvious, but I thought it was worth mentioning so that Peter might consider it. Thanks!

Oh, when dealing with me, yes, please post the obvious. My reputation as a bigtime CEO means people tend to think I'm way smarter than I really am. Anyway, I agree with these comments. I'm picturing an area of small tables, with perhaps a couple of small booths, in a designated "quiet area" of the exhibit hall.

One question I struggle with is how much to physically isolate the area. It obviously should be in the exhibit hall to take advantage of the exhibit hall traffic. The more we use things like curtains (relatively cheap) or hardwall (more expensive) to segregate it the quieter it will be, but the less accessible it would be also.

I suggested the idea of a centralized POS, but I really started to rue making the suggestion because of the extra work it would require of us. We do this for the art show, but it's a major effort for the gal who runs it--significant enough that we have to assign a very responsible person and
that person doesn't have the bandwith to do anything else for us. Another option (run for cover, Ron) is to get a company with roots in the small press community to "sponsor" the area and get some marketing benefit in exchange for handling POS for companies who want it.

There's a great advantage to us (Gen Con) if it's a system that runs with only minimal involvement from our staff.

And to everyone who said thanks, you're welcome.

[PeterAdkison]

Mike Holmes writes:

OTOH, if the points could be divided up between the participants at the Con, when registering for the year for which they'd be recieved, that would be simple. Instead of saying Adept gets 10 points, say that we want Adept to get 5 and Key 20 to get 5. Or whatever distribution is sensible for the attendees, or was negotiated per the above.

Could that be done?

Perhaps. I feel strongly that we need to keep to our policy about having one primary point of contact who's on the hook for us getting paid. We sell booths in units and we need to get paid for them in units. My conviction around this policy is more intuitive than scientific, but I think the scientific rationale would be similar to why intelligent landlords have similar policies with tenants. But dividing up priority points might be possible. After this thread dies down a bit I'm going to go over all the key ideas with Jeanette (my sales manager), who is far more knowlegable than I about where the minefields are in changing these policies, and post a summary.

Ron Edwards writes:

ONE
The idea of a field of small tables, each presided over by a confused, isolated, miserable, and now woefully-exposed small-press publisher, is incredibly depressing.

Darn, I thought we were getting somewhere with that concept. But your point is well taken.

TWO
Sound pollution is turning out to be a serious problem at GenCon.

Yeah, I'm worried about this as well. It's certainly clear that the noise is a negative for small exhibitors who are trying to do demos, and perhaps ANY exhibitor that's too close to an exhibitor like Upper Deck. On the other hand, these big exhibitors (who are, I can't forget, my biggest customers) create a lot of excitement with these systems. Well, sometimes they do--I can't really support that comment with Upper Deck as an example this past show. One of the things I have to think about is "what's my competitive advantage compared to other games conventions?" One advantage is that the big companies are willing to come and spend the money to put up a big booth and invest in big AV systems to wow and entertain. It's hard to give that up.

I suggest that amplified sound levels be strictly enforced and, perhaps, certain sorts of sound systems simply be prohibited.

I really don't want the loud exhibitors to put on less of a show. I lean more toward M.J. Young's suggestions of creating a quiet area within the exhibit hall. I don't know if it's as simplistic as zone A and zone B, but something like that. Perhaps a separate demo hall would work, but I'm worried about sepataing demo areas from booth areas for two reasons: (1) This requires more work on my part to create a new area and figure out where to put it and drive traffic there, etc, and (2) Many small companies are one-person shops and would have difficulty staffing two areas.

THREE
Here's an idea. Pick some space in the con area with fairly heavy traffic but without some other company's commercial activity going on.

Four people run up. Very quickly, they unfold a card table, put a cloth over it, unfold chairs, and open a notebook. They slam into a role-playing scene, with great verve and enthusiasm, playing for about 20 minutes. If anyone sidles up, they get a pamphlet, nothing more. Then, just as quickly and with no discernable signal, and most especially no explanations, they fold up, pack up, and run off.

The pamphlet includes a map to the Forge booth and a brief blurb about the game being played.

Peter, is this allowed? Or more accurately, is it not prohibited? Notice that it's not disruptive toward others' sales, unlike the occasional LARP group that wanders through the exhibit hall (and whom I always shoo away from my booth, to their amazement).

In general I love the random LARP group that wanders by. 8 guys dressed as monks banging boards on their heads is fun entertainment and I encourage it. But I only like it if they keep moving. Setting up a table has more a sense of stationary permanency to it, could seriously block traffic flow, and it really screws with our firecode plans. Yeah, blame it on the fire marshal--that sounds so lame--but it's a reality. We have to fight with the fire marshal throughout the whole convention. We thought that was just because in Milwaukee we were too crammed for space, but we faced the same issue this year in Indy. This also skirts the grey area around our policies against handbilling and free demos except in your booth space.

Basically, there is no free space in the exhibit hall. We as convention organizers have to buy the whole space, obviously. We have to have aisles for traffic, obviously. We set up some space for celebrity guests of honor (we could certainly have a reasonable debate around whether this is worth the space and money). The rest of the space we try and sell. If you see empty space in the exhibit hall that doesn't fit into one of these categories, it's because we failed to sell it all and you can bet that it's going to be factored in to our internal discussions about how much space to devote to the hall and what to charge for booths in subsequent years. (We're actually pretty happy to have sold about 90% of the exhibit hall in Indy this year, especially since the hall was 40% bigger than the exhibit hall in Milwaukee and booth prices were flat or up depending on when you bought).

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

One thing about my little guerilla-theater RPG idea that I didn't make clear, was that I envisioned it to happen outside of the exhibit hall. Probably in an open space, not a high-traffic hallway, and certainly not in among the lines for the entry tickets. Remember the escalators right next to the food court? Think of the space just next to the lower end, where no one really walks. Or remember that area with couches after you went up the escalators, and across the street? That sort of place.

And also, as I say, about twenty minutes worth of play/demo - that's it. Peter, what do you think - does that sound more do-able/allowable?

Best,
Ron

[Luke]

Quote:
ONE
The idea of a field of small tables, each presided over by a confused, isolated, miserable, and now woefully-exposed small-press publisher, is incredibly depressing.

Darn, I thought we were getting somewhere with that concept. But your point is well taken.

Just 'cuz Ron don't like doesn't mean it's bad. Personally, all I need is a table and some traffic. If an indie game designer pitching his own game needs more than that, then something is wrong with the picture.

And given these conditions, isolated and exposed I may be, but never miserable and far from depressing. I will shortly have kids at my table cackling with delight as their characters are murdered in gleefully gorey circumstances.

So Ron, having been in similar "exposed" positions myself and done ok, perhaps you'd care to elaborate on your dislike for this set up?

I envision a corral with maybe a dozen tables set up, a dizzying array of games, all waiting to be described by eager designers. Gamers walk in, pick and choose, play and move on and perhaps pay for what they like.

The space must be in the exhibitor's hall. And if GenCon doesn't want to run a register, then companies should field their own sales and be charged a flat fee for the table.

Personally, I LOVE the Forge booth model, but I think this is alternate method to help small publishers get exposure for their wares at a really big convention. Not everyone can pull together a Forge booth, it's hard enough on Ron as it is and he has all our loving support!


Regarding Noise:
Ok, agreed that the exhibitor's hall should be showey and flashy. Agreed that there should be a noise/amp zone and a non-amp zone. Let the amps compete with amps and the voices compete with voices. Personal bias: Put the noise zone away from the entrances. They are going attract attention no matter where you put them, use them to draw traffic through the hall. Of course, telling UpperDeck that they can't have a massive (and under-used) sound stage in the middle of the hall is not a pretty prospect.

again, just my thoughts.
And I must confess, Peter, as a gamer and designer, I REALLY appreciate your asking and your interest.

-Luke

[Christopher Weeks]

I didn't look, but I assume all those large areas are pretty flexible in the way they're divided.  Would it really create a traffic-management nightmare to run the built-in dividers half way across the room so that it looked something like:

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And then require AV presentations to take place in one of the end cul de sacs?  People like The Forge would then have the option of choosing to be in the opposite.

Also, how do you measure the value to the con of increasing the aisle space?  On the face of things, it would seem to clearly decrease the number of booths possible and thus the income, but I know several people, myself included, who limit the amount spent in there not based on income or budget (we're all grown up and have professional IT positions now :-) but just because it's so unpleasant to deal with the crowds and the noise.  I think that bigger aisle space would be a selling point to your dealer-customers, but maybe it's too abstract for most of them to appreciate (when compared to dollars that have to be shelled out).

Chris

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Luke,

Perhaps we're working with different mental images of the space we're talking about. In my image, you can see a bunch of tables like a little sea. Looking over them, you can see everyone at all of the tables, assuming they're sitting.

If everyone else at all the tables includes people like Ralph Mazza, Matt Snyder, Cynthia Celeste Miller, Danielle Hall, and so on, then great! You have a bazaar situation, kind of a smorgasbord of fun. Everyone's playing games and demo'ing systems and directing people to other tables.

But as Matt Snyder pointed out above, this sort of behavior is not typical of most publishers at their exhibit booth. You did a lot of working the crowd around the exhibit hall; I did a lot of booth contacting, talking to people who were publishing their own stuff. Excepting the veterans who have chiseled out their success-market already (e.g. Apophis), it's a sad bunch.

They don't know how to talk up their games. They don't know how to run a demo. They don't know how to impress passers-by with enthusiasm. They don't know how to provide fun in a five-minute interaction. What do they do? They sit there, smile desperately, and hope someone will pay attention to them. When I buy their game (often their first sale of the day) and give them Forge contact information, I practically have to pry their hands off me to escape, they're so starved for contact. When I think of the bucks they're dropping on booth costs, travel, and lodging, it's too painful to contemplate.

I've seen this consistently over the past few years, and by all accounts based on talking to long-term "industry" folk, it's typical. In some cases (I count four, maybe, in the last decade), they become raging successes over time. Most of them fade away after one GenCon and one feeble foray into distribution. They are the flotsam and jetsam of the show.

For outreach purposes, I make contact with these publishers, and who knows, maybe some help or good is accomplished. And maybe some do great without me in any way. But packing in the horde of them in one large space ... even if Burning Wheel is blazing away four tables away, and if Dust Devils is emptying its pistols ten tables away, I shudder to imagine trying to sell in an environment where even a third of the tables correspond to my observations above. I anticipate that potential customers would take one look and avoid the whole ghetto, instantly.

I'd be much happier if three or four of the independent publishers who have their shit together simply got a booth together, and then a few more got another booth together, and if they were in the same aisle. That was essentially the case for GenCon 2002 and the whole aisle was jumpin'.

Best,
Ron

[Michael S. Miller]

One thing about my little guerilla-theater RPG idea

This idea might be a way to get enthusiastic Forgites (who don't have a game of their own yet) involved--or if there are too many people at a booth--but I doubt that it will generate much attention. There's already a heck of a lot of actual play going on in the hallways of GenCon. Lots of groups are curled up on the carpet slingin' dice, with most passers-by just passin' by without a second glance. Perhaps the enthusiasm or the unfamiliar-looking books might draw a few interested folk, but not terribly many, I think.