Magic systems? (spell points, specific spells vs spheres)

[SumDood]

I really like that Karma system, I think it would be fun to use. It's a cool idea. But doesn't it still rely on selections of spells? You still can't make up your own spells "on the fly" can you?

The two conceptual restrictions I see here are:
1. The limitation on power
2. The limitation on flexibility

The Karma system addresses the power issue quite well. But what about flexibility. Other than simply having the GM referee the effects of character generated magic, is there any other method that allows character's to create a new magical effect (spell) during mele?

I've seen the Will and Word method used, but it's far too powerfull. Basically multi-wish capability with a few restrictions and a chance to succeed. I've heard of elemental combinations like you mentioned (kinetic magic + pyrotic magic for a fireball). I think I've even seen this in a video game RPG somewhere. I'm sure there are some card-based systems that let you use combinations of playing cards to "combine" different effects and create new spells on the fly.

My system is similar to what's already out there, simply because it works, and I haven't bothered to spend the time figuring out anything fancier. I have spell lists, and learning spells (hyperwave patterns and formulas in my case) takes time and advancement points. Limitations on power are constricted by hyperwave points. It would be pretty easy to apply the Karma based system you described, but it still wouldn't get around the list and allow character's to create their own patterns and formulas.

I'd really like to see a good system for the creation of new effects "on the fly" during mele. If every character in a game was capable of doing this, it would really give the creative players with good knowledge of the system an edge. Your experience as a player would be reflected not just in your role playing, but also your tactics and creativity in combat. (I'm sure we've all had players that were excellent at roll playing or at combat, but not necessarily both).

[Cemendur]

I am developing a network-based conceptual map of magick based on the art and science of magick of the hermetic tradition.

Basically their are three magickal-metaphoric domains; psychic, spiritual and mythic (or void). Each of these domains break down further. Rituals are a combination of magickal practices.

Magick works similarly to the more networked organized D&D feats or to the basic idea of GURPS. For instance, Whirlwind Attack requires the Expertise Feat and the Spring Attack feat (which requires the Mobility feat which requires the Dodge feat). In the context of other abilities, this approaches the network model. Magick works like a network.

Whirlwind Attack Requirements in D&D
1) Expertise
2) Spring Attack
2a) Mobility
2ai) Dodge

However, in many cases the prerequisite spell is required to be cast first. This is one major deviation from the GURPS model. In this way magick is performed like a recipe is made.

For instance to summon a spirit- you perform a spiritual cleansing ceremony (too erect barriers for malicious spirits), you summon a spirit or many spirits for advice or other requests. Then you perform magickal feats of communication and then interact through a cooperator-collaborator personality-relationship mechanic.

Forgive me I am making this rules up on the fly after mulling this over for quite some time.

Summon a Spirit

1) Ritual Cleansing
2) Spirit Offering/Summoning
a) Prerequisite: Spiritual Insight
b) Prerequisite: Knowledge: Spirits X
3) Spiritual Communication
a) Prerequisite: Spiritual Insight
b) Prerequisite: Knowledge: Spirits Y


Of course the cleansing is optional. If you are desperate you can perform this without it. However, you are opening yourself up to hostile spirits in doing so. Also, your target spirit(s) may become offended.

If instead you intentionally summoning a hostile spirit using a form of "demonic magick" or otherwise bind a spirit, you also perform a protection circle and interact within an authoritorian personality-relationship mechanic which can have an effect on your sanity through another mechanic.

In the case of entering the spiritual (astral) realm, you perform a ceremony of cleansing and warding to protect your body and your spirit. You then perform one of many different types of astral magick which require a form of astral perception as a prerequisite; either dream magick, trance magick, etc.

Note: This is all within the spiritual realm. In the descriptions above, psychic and void ability is not required. However, I will be developing rituals that cross the domains.

A limiting factor in this point-based character creation is the use of schools, traditions, temples, etc. Magick can be learned outside of these traditions. However, they offer invaluable training and research. "Spell Networks" are mapped through these traditions. Also, relationships with some spirits will have an impact on your relationship with others. More than one tradition can be studied if their philosophies are compatable with the characters i.e. a Magician or Priest who practices Angelic Magick will find it difficult to intermix this with Demonic Magick (to pick two extremes that can have actually used). However, Angelic Magick can be more readily used with Runic Magick.


I am not aware of another RPG system that uses a network/recipe model of magick. I would be very interested to see one.

[Edited because I needed to show the destinction between the network/recipe model and the GURPS method.]

[Windthin]

I know a lot of players who would start out the day by casting 5 or 6 easy cantrip spells everyday to add enough Karma to be sure of several castings later. Say, preserve food, repel insects, clean clothes, clean body, spice food... ok...so I made all my 93% rolls... I've got  10 Karma now I can fail at least three times today, and still have another chance at a spell.

I believe the solution to this may be a matter of escalation; make mundane little effects not worthy of gaining OR losing Karma (or perhaps simply not gaining; with a 93% chance of success, I don't have too much sympathy in the event of a failure.  If you wanted such a failure to only subtract 1 or 2 points of Karma, that is also possible), so they cannot be abused.  Furthermore, a master mage may be able to cast some fairly simple spells without half thinking about it.... again, without gaining or losing Karma.  It's all a matter of perspective.

[Thanaeon]

Here's a magic system idea that I've had in my head for more than a year now:

The basic idea behind this is that magic users should be capable of powerful effects, but having magic be rare. I prefer a few powerful spells to lots of mediocre ones. In addition, I don't view game balance as an all-important thing.

Now, in my idea, when using magic, energy creation is relatively easy. That is, one doesn't need to be an exceptional mage to conjure really big forces. Also, Affecting things far away is easier than in most systems. However, focusing those forces is hard. In other words, while you might be able to make a telekinetic spell of truly bone-crunching force, you might not be able to focus it tightly enough, and would instead end up flinging all the people and furniture in the room to the opposite wall. A more skillful mage might, however. Similiarly, The Evil Mage (TM), knowing that the PC's are climbing to his tower, might not be able to target a lightning at them from the clouds, but would be able to call up a rain that would make the climb harder and more perilous.

The reason I like this system is because it achieves a few premises of magic that I like:
a) I like a few powerful spells, like stated above
b) Magic feels very powerful, without being all-powerful
c) I think mages casting spells to vex their foes from far away should be easier, and under most magic systems, that isn't very effective. Under these guidelines, it's possible, but still not too effective, thanks to the difficulty of focusing the power on one individual.

What do you people think about this idea?

[Umberhulk]

Sonja's KARMA system has some real fun potential in it.  I think it would go very well with a dice pooling mechanic.  The player would risk dice when they are casting and gain dice for being successful, lose them for being unsuccessful.  The "skill" of the caster would determine the maximum number of dice that they could "wager" in any given spell college or discipline.  There could even be different-sided dice introduced to the pool mechanic for added flavor.  Magic could be fickle and the dice that you gain for being successful could be random (e.g. roll a six sider and gain: 1-d4,2-d6,3-d8, 4-d10, 5-d12, 6-d20).

Another concept that I have been kicking around for a year or so is a "Magic System Construction Set".  It is a meta-system for defining and codifing RPG magic rules.  Essentailly, it relies on the concept of magic energy (mana) being in mana pools and the behavior of the mana in the pools and while accessing the pools.  Once codified, point values could be assigned, so that you can use whatever magic system or even mutliple magic systems in your game and you would have a balancing mechanism in place.  This would work even better with game systems that are themselves point based (GURPS, Hero System).

-Brodie