An RPG of Clinical Depression

[ethan_greer]

lpsmith:
Welcome to the Forge!

Your suggestion is interesting.  I'll definitely keep it in mind as I work on figuring out how I'm going to deal with self-medication. Thanks!

Rob:
Perhaps instead of "anxiety attack" I could change it to just "attack" and leave it more open to interpretation.  I'll have to mull it over.

As far as suicide is concerned, I did consider including some mechanics for it. But then I decided I want to keep that word out of the game if at all possible.  Reason: "Suicide" is a word that leaps into the mind of the reader and says "bad bad bad!" When that lands in the reader's brain, I see it as an opportunity to stop thinking, because "suicide is bad, and can stem from depression" is basically a truism in this culture.  I worry that if I include the word, readers who are not familiar with clinical depression might assume that suicide is the key indicator or logical conclusion of depression, and anything "less" is not particularly significant.  Which is of course false.

On the other hand, "Thoughts of death and/or suicide" would make for a dandy trigger.

Thanks to all thus far for your comments.

[lpsmith]

OK, so the mechanics of this intrigued me, and I wrote a little program to simulate a series of 'day in the lifes' to see what sort of patterns emerged.

One thing that jumped out of the rules is that there is no explicit mechanism for the black die to increase--as written only the white die can ever increase.  This means that as soon as the white die wins anything, the black die drops and never recovers, meaning there's no possibility of an anxiety attack (the numbers turn out to be that anxiety attacks happen only 15% of the time.)

Putting in a parallel mechanism for the black die increasing (when it wins and rolled its max), the numbers go to about 50/50 anxiety attack vs. transcendence, as you might expect.  Is this a reasonable model for depression?  If not, you might want to give one side or the other some advantage.

Another thing that jumped out is what happens when you roll a tie.  I had my program just re-roll, but this might make a convenient entrypoint for some other mechanic you want to introduce (like giving ties to the black die, for instance, if you didn't want it to be 50/50).  Another thing to consider is what to do if one or both dies roll their maximum during a tie.

The length of a game is pretty widely variable, but tends towards the short.  The minimum number of decisions is 4, with the white or black die losing 4 times in a row, which happens almost 30% of the time (15% each for transcendence vs. anxiety attacks).  If the initial dice are d10's, the minimum number is 3, and the number of 3- or 4-decision days drops a bit to about 25%. If the initial dice are d8's, the minimum drops to 2, but the number of 2-, 3-, or 4- decision days drops to only 7%.

The maximum number of decisions in my 10,000-game run was 479.  Presumably in such a case, the day would end without either result happening, which is probably fine.  The average number of decisions before some result was reached was about 30.

It's a perl program which I put up at http://bioc.rice.edu/~lpsmith/IF/depression_game.pl  Enjoy!

And thanks for the welcome ;-)

[Edit:  some of my numbers were initially off due to counting ties as decisions instead of re-rolls.]

[Lxndr]

But there is a mechanism for the black die to increase:

"Whenever a trigger is encountered in play, the black die jumps to d12 (or its maximum allowable level)."

Do your numbers include that?

[LordSmerf]

And the triggers are completely arbitrary, which is a great idea.  A mechanical determination of triggers wouldn't be as interesting, and probably not as realistic either.

Thomas

[lpsmith]

Oops, missed that.  I suppose I could put in the chance an event is a trigger to vaguely model the system, but we're treading in even more vague territories, here.

Hopefully, the program as written will provide some insight.  One thing to note would be that if the trigger is the only thing that ups the die, the events immediately following the trigger are extremely likely to trigger an anxiety attack, but then once the white die has won once, the danger is past.  (Well, the danger of triggering an anxiety attack, not the danger of not being able to actually accomplish anything).  As such, triggers would be the only thing that could cause anxiety attacks.  If you want to model other things causing anxiety attacks, some other model of black-die-raising (like the one for white die raising) is in order.

Cool concept, in case I hadn't mentioned that before.

[failrate]

Well, literally, an unnoticed trigger, just a bout of insomnia or even nothing at all (except for the complex neurochemistry of the brain) can trigger a bout of depression.  From a pure game point of view, it seems like it is assumed that at the beginning of the game session, the player "character" is either within, or has just entered, a depressive episode.  That is, he might have been just fine a week, a month, a day, an hour ago, but now he is having a prolonged episode combined with *particularly* bad episodes within (described as "attacks").  That said, given the fact that each person could have a laundry list of potential triggers, there really doesn't need to be any other black-die raising mechanic.  That black monster will leap up to d12 numerous times throughout the day, and it is only through resisting this depression successfully that the person will be able to max out white or avoid an episode.  Truly, just sitting or lying in one position staring at a spot on the ceiling just because you can't roll higher on your white die (despite hunger, thirst, the need to get washed and dressed to go to work) is too damn common.

[ethan_greer]

Hi lpsmith,
Wow, cool. Glad you liked the game enough to tinker with it programatically! :) One thing you missed - tied rolls go to black. Otherwise, though, it's very cool to have the average number of decisions, mins and maxes, etc. Thanks very much.

Those interested in the mechanics of this game might also want to check out Pollies, upon which this game's dice mechanics are based.

[ejh]

I find the amount of objection to self-medication rules kind of interesting.

I'm sure that while it's partly based on fact, the volume and enthusiasm of the objections probably partly stems from the "war on drugs" stigma against drugs one decides to take oneself rather than drugs one's doctor in his infinite wisdom has bestowed upon one.

If self-medication didn't, in some fashion and to some degree, work, then people wouldn't do it.  The question is whether the degree to which it works is canceled out by social/legal and medical problems that it causes in the long run.

But this game is not about the long run, it's about the short run.

[apeiron]

@ i like the premise.  Not crazy about the mechs, but that is just me.  Here's what i'd like to add....

@ Poisoned Relief:  have a trait that measures current state of mind and the over state of mental health.  Negative behaviors such as drugs, careless sex and the like might ameliorate the current state, but at the cost of increasing the permanant mental health problem.  Getting drunk might drop your black die tonight, but for the rest of the month (or indefinately) you are going to suffer for it.

@ Fetters: take a look at the fetters in Wraith.  Each ghost has *issues* called fetters, things unresolved that keep them from moving to the next level.  Resolving those things moves the character to its 'final reward'.  It is not enough to say 'you are X depressed' and then work on it.  Depression has causes, some neurochemical, genetic, situational or developmental.  Maybe this character has an imbalance, this other character's wife just died in some horrid way, and the other character had a fuct childhood.  The total depression is the sum of all of those things.  Some of these fetters are obvious, some may be unknown to the player.  Which makes sense because sometime ppl have no idea why they are depressed.  Part of the game can be finding out why.  Then comes the next step.

@ Resolution: each issue has some real and useful means of being conquered, or at least held at bay.  If the depression is chemical, then the player must seek therapy and a prozac despenser.  This might cost some money or getting a job with benefits.  Ta daa!  A clear mission.  "I have to get off my ass and find a job with benefits so i can get happy".  If it is a situational cause there are different obsticles to overcome. And so on.  

@ Depression is often a matter of not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel.  So for the player, they must identify what is blocking the light and then remove the obstructions... or light a candle that will eat the oxygen in their personal collapsed cave.

@ You've got something good here, publish it!

[fusangite]

This is a wonderful way of expressing clinical depression in terms of game mechanics. I therefore do not recommend that anyone with clinical depression play it. As we know, accurately perceiving the world around you is a symptom of clinical depression; and all we can do is treat the symptoms...

[ethan_greer]

Hi folks, thanks for the praise, thoughts, and suggestions. Those interested can rest assured this is on my pile of potential projects/products that are queueing up with alarming rapidity considering how behind I am on getting my "main" game done. :)

[Eero Tuovinen]

Well, I've mulled now and then over a more general psychoanalytic game - one with multiple GMs and an uncomfortable level of intimacy, to be exact. And as everyone is advertising their psychological problems as recommendations, I probably have to mention my clinically depressed brother and the strong general disposition in the family.

Anyway, now that that's over with, the point. My central question would be if the game is intented to objectivise or subjectivise the experience of clinical depression. You could make it much more disturbing by positing that the general milieu and particulars of the game be lifted from the life of the player, for example. "Your life in depression", as it were. On the other hand, adding a character creation phase (from which the triggers could be derived) is one way of removing the experience and objectivising it.

In any case I feel that there is generally more to be done with the mechanics. A rules light game is of course fine, but the incidious subject matter easily inspires more aspects to simulate. I like the main mechanic, so it's a good start, but I'll throw a couple of points to consider.

Gaining and losing triggers could be done, for example. The game would in a campaign form (more than one day) probably span weeks at most (although nothing would stop the GM from skipping if there was some greater point to be made), so flashbacking might be in order. From my experience the retroactive re-evaluation of your previous life alluded to by someone is quite common, so that could be a source of new triggers in longer term play.

There are some other statistics that might need quantifying, depending on your theory about the inner nature of depression. I would, for example, include dreams instead of / in addition to triggers, as the triggering situations and the logic behind them seem to arise from a perceived failure relating to the idealised self-image. Depends on how deep in to the psychology the game would go.

It seems to me that the driving point behind the modifiers and self-medication is whether you perceive a given solution as delusional (using drugs to lessen the anxiety) or a real help (counseling, anti-depressants). Would it be more appropriate to leave this division for the players? Just name the two categories a little more generally (and maybe add more categories like something that stops the black die from dropping below d6?) and leave it to the GM to decide if some modifier in his understanding of depression belongs to a category (or more than one!). This could be formalised by stating that the player could request evaluation for a given situation, activity etc. and the GM would assign it to a category. As the point of the game is for the depression-experienced GM to teach the young grasshopper, this would free him to impart his own understanding about it, relative to the character played (which could conceivably affect the usefulness of f.ex. counseling!).

To finish, about therapeutic and entertainment roleplaying: I don't personally see any insurmountible barrier between them. I'd say that the difference is more important for those who emphasize the difference between art and entertainment. If your entertainment is art, it probably includes some heavy subjects. Indeed, one could say that art as a taste is all about searching for the ultimate experience. Wallowing in heavy depression sounds quite entertaining to me, for example. If a game like this would help role immersion related to depression, it'd be entirely viable as entertainment for me. I think I'll actually try this one of these days...

[Starlight_Rider]

I have been lurking in this forum for quite a while but this topic had me interested enough to register and post something.

I have suffered from clinical depression for many years (without realizing it for what it was) so the title of this post atutomatically caught my attention.   My problem is that the game seems too reminiscent of this dark period in my life.  It's just not something I would play.  Maybe it can be therapuetic for some people but it would probably have the opposite effect on me.  I'ts not really the problem with having a game focused on psychological problems but that your game is perhaps too upfront.  I think it would work if it was a bit more subtle or metaphorical.  Bring the setting more into the realm of fantasy while keeping the psychological aspects similar but a bit distant from reality.  For example, a game like Wraith is a ghost story about the undead.  Standard fantastical setting.   What makes it interesting is all the psychological aspects of the game that everyone can relate to in their own way.  You have a shadow which is constantly taunting you with your failures and problems and things you missed out in your life.  At the same time you have all these attachments still to your life, whether it be friends and family or whatever that keeps you from going over the edge.  All of these aspects are of a fantastical rather then direct nature but each player can understand himself/herself better through it.  Thats the type of thing that I would like to see in a psychological focused game.  I just feel that your game hits too close to home for me.

[ethan_greer]

The game is intended to be very subjective, and played one on one.  The player plays himself or herself (more or less; the triggers are added on and will probably be fictional).  The GM is a person who has either suffered from clinical depression or has knowledge of clinical depression.

The reason I would play the game (and the reason I designed it) is for those times when someone without knowledge or understanding of depression asks me something like, "but why are you depressed?" or "what's depression like?"

Bluntly, depressed people or people who understand depression don't need to be players, and probably shouldn't be.  The game is more a tool for depression sufferers to illustrate to others what depression is like.  As such, the ideas for character creation and such don't quite fit - the game needs to have minimal set-up time and needs to be as accessible as possible to the non-gamer, so that it could be initiated almost conversationally to someone who has never played an RPG in their life.  The next draft will have guidelines for setup and play.

All that being said, thanks to those who have brought up Wraith.  I wouldn't have thought of it, and I see that it could potentially be a valuable idea mine for this game.  Are there any other games folks can think of with psychological themes?

Eero, I like your thoughts about self-medication and behavior categories.  Good stuff.  And if you do try the game out, I'd love to hear about it - start a thread in Actual Play if you're so inclined.

Hi Starlight_Rider, and welcome to the Forge!  Does the explanation above address your concerns about the purpose of the game, and its application?  I don't want to get too personal, but my take is that you would certainly not want to be a player in the game.  Instead, as a GM, you could theoretically use the game to explain depression to friends or family.

Again, thanks to all for your thoughts on the game.

[Walt Freitag]

Are there any other games folks can think of with psychological themes?

Hungry Desperate and Alone comes to mind.

- Walt