Humakt, Rashoran, and justice (split from rape/Glorantha)

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Wow!

I'm thinking that at the philosophical level, two "truth" concepts might be a big deal for those who emulate Hereward. Especially since the core concept for Humakti involves applying Death. Which of the two is Real truth? Who knows?

1. Truth as absolute knowledge, gained by loyalty and effort. I think this is the kind of truth that Lhankor Mhy pursues, in the form of the Mistress of the Light of Knowledge, who was killed by Tien (later to become Thanatar) during the Greater Darkness. With all possible provisos that I'm speaking only of my own game, Irippi Ontor worship would be an extreme form of this same endeavor.

2. Truth as flash of insight, particularly in terms of momentary application: what actually to do now. This is more in line, to my way of thinking, with Rashoran(a), especially in the case of irreconcilable differences and in the absence (or rejection of) guidelines.

The hell of it is, both honor and justice rely on "truth." Anyone can say they prize their honor or justice. But which truth are they employing? How is it derived? When do you know you have it? Is it truth about "what happened" or about what that "means"?

As I read the source material you guys have linked to, the more Newsalor's brief comment makes sense: there's some serious bad blood between Hereward and the legacy of Rashoran. (By the way, there's no mention of Tarumath in Cults of Terror; must be a King of Dragon Pass thing.) Now, what does that bad blood entail?

... because the second sort of truth does seem a little more Hereward-like, you know? Did Hereward, in rejecting Arkat, actually reject what Nysalor offered, or come closer to it? Such questions always arise when dealing with Nysalor/Gbaji ...

Thanks so much for bringing this great game to the attention of the forum!

Best,
Ron

[Mark Galeotti]

Just to muddy the waters, it is worth mentioning not only that there are different perspectives on Humakt within Dragon Pass (eg, the honourable king's bodyguard who puts the greatest emphasis upon law and honour vs. the Lismelder zombie-slayer, who regards reasserting the natural order of death upon the undead as the finest expression of Humakt's will), but there are also other takes on Humakt.

Hum'Akt is the Carmanian death god, and in his worship, the emphasis is put much more firmly on death and judgement rather than law and honour as such.

All this should help emphasise what is, after all, a central issue of this thread -- that in Glorantha, as in the real world, the most important and interesting differences are usually within 'us' rather than between 'us' and 'them'...

All the best

Mark

[RaconteurX]

I don't suppose that your game included a final, deadly confrontation between these two player-characters?

After Sarostip Cold-eye was murdered, Heordan feared (and quite rightly) that Kelulf would draw the Cold Wind into a suicidal head-on confrontation with the Lunar Army. Rather than see a powerful Rebel force wasted on a petty act of revenge, he challenged Kelulf for the leadership of the Cold Wind movement. Kelulf responded with a demand that the duel be to the death. Heordan consented with great sadness.

The odds were greatly in Kelulf's favor, as Sarostip had groomed him for the position and he had a well-established connection to the heroband, so I permitted his player to augment Kelulf's Sword Fighting with both his Mentored by Sarostip Cold-eye and Member of the Cold Wind relationships in addition to the usual collection of automatic augments from his mundane and magical abilities.

Heordan, however, was Kelulf's better in Sword Fighting and magic, and possessed a greater reserve of Hero Points (which his player in turn spent to guarantee some really impressive variable augments). In the penultimate exchange, Heordan invoked the Sever Relationship feat from Humakt's Honor affinity, achieved a complete victory, and cut away Kelulf's Mentored by Sarostip Cold-eye... resulting in its loss as well as the loss of the augment it provided.

This tipped the balance once and for all, allowing Heordan to drive Kelulf well into Injured. A parting shot using the Inspire Loyalty feat (which Heordan had acquired especially for this occasion) gave Heordan a complete victory in the overall contest. Any doubt as to who God intended to lead the Cold Wind was stifled there, for all time. I awarded Heordan a sizeable Leader of the Cold Wind relationship, which his player immediately increased with Heordan's remaining HPs.

I also offered Kelulf a Loyal to Heordan Keen-eye relationship free of charge, at the level of his lost Mentored by Sarostip Cold-eye, or death. His player took the relationship; after all, he had spent a lot of HPs on it and did not want to lose them. The two immediately set to planning Heordan's first holy mission: the assassination of the Lunar puppet, "Prince" Temertain. But that is another story... :)

[Ron Edwards]

Wowsers again! Michael, that is one of the most satisfying posts I've read in a long time.

It's interesting that Kelulf went for the "submission" option, especially after demanding that the duel be to the death. I can think of some players, not all by any means, who'd be pretty enthusiastic about playing the guy's death-scene in these circumstances. But this makes sense as well, in the chivalric context that "winning means you must be right, so I guess I'll agree." Is that more-or-less the logic that was employed, in your judgment of the game?

Hi Mark! Good to have you here.

Best,
Ron

[newsalor]

Ron Edwards:

So, newsalor, please clarify your point about the Tarumathi in a way that someone relatively new to the material can understand.

My thoughts on your post, perhaps hampered by the post's sketchiness, is that saying "no relevance" is overly general.

Ok. Sorry if I confused you. I was not trying to impress you lot with my knowledge. I was just saying that nothing like that would be ever consider in our clan. Everyone who questions that may very well be a trice cursed Riddler! I see that the smiley did not help at all. I'll try to be more specific.

Pelanda is a country between Dara Happa and Karmania. They have been under the rule of Dara Happans for a long time (on and off) .

Rashoran/Rashorana is originally from Pelandan mythology. His/her origins are pretty far from your good old Heortling roots. Humakt does not appear in Pelandan myths as far as I know.

Tarumathi were/are a people that live near Dorastor and they were big time supporters of Nysalor and his Bright Empire. There we have a connection between Pelandan philosophers and Tarumathi Orlanthi.

Tarumath was/is a deity of High Storm. It was Lokamayadons own off-shoot of the more conventional Orlanthi ways - nowadays considered heretical as is everything else that has something to do with Gbaji (In this case, Nysalor) . I really believe that the connection between Humakt and Rashoran/a is due to Pelorian / Pelandan influence during the First Age. Those people did not worship Humakt. They may have heroquested to prove it, so the connection could exist still, but I think that it has very little relevance to your basic Heortlings.

I'm sorry if you don't like "hard-line Sartarite rebels". I won't force my players make new characters. I like my new clan based campaign. We do explore personal morals, but I think that it can be done better if the general moral values are presented first. It's not really a compromise if you don't believe in anything.

However, I'm not saying that your game should not include a heroband full of illuminated Humakti. YGMV. Have fun.

[Jane]

hi folks - ron, sorry to crash in. this is guy, i narrate the game that kao and jane are talking about.

we've not discussed this much in game, and i think this is a fruitful area for development. i have some ideas which i'm leery about disclosing right now, for obvious reasons.

It's all right, Guy, you can reveal secrets to me and I won't tell my character :)

4. following his refusal to follow arkat down the path of illumination, hereward went - well, mad, it appears, for quite a while. i think the text has it that he staggered around weeping blood and raging against the betrayal of his god for a couple of years, or something.

From the current write-up we have:

But when Arkat told them to exchange their teeth for tusks, and lie dead in a birthing cave for a year, he knew the time had come to question his loyalty. He called on Humakt his Lord and Orlanth, the god of his tribe. They sent the sharp wind from the North; Occam's Wind; the wind that cuts most fine; also called the TruthWind. For one day and one night Hereward drove this wind against the words that Arkat spoke to him. At the end of that time he stood and walked from Arkat's commands and into the wilderness, where he wandered blindly for ten years. It is Herewards greatest shame that he could not see through Arkat's lies from the start. He swore a great oath never to be so deceived again

Hereward had learned Arkat's lesson that Honour Serves The Goal and he taught this in his turn. But after Hereward broke with Arkat he left his people and wandered the world in despair. Everywhere he went he trod in the footsteps of destruction, for the world was overcome with war. He travelled in each direction seeking guidance from renowned men and teachers, but everyone called on him to follow one side or the other. Unable to choose a way he did nothing, and so was forced to watch in agony as everything around him was destroyed. Finally there were no direction left to travel and he retreated inside himself to escape the horror of the world. There he found the truth and returned, re-armed, to lead his people against the enemy. Afterwards Hereward taught that Honour Is The Goal

Yes, "goes mad" would seem to cover that :) Or, as I seem to remember putting it once when excusing my character's dithering, he spent ten years navel-gazing to reach a conclusion that any sane person could have got to in five minutes.

6. hereward retains his air connection

This is one bit that fascinates me. What version of Humakt was it that Hereward worshipped? Was it Humath, who was still a  member of the Storm Tribe? I gather there is a theory that Humakt only lost/abandoned his wind powers when Lokomayadon came on the scene, possibly due to some creative editing by worshippers at the time who wanted to keep (most of) their cult. This sounds like something I'd like to learn more about.

On Rashoron: as you can see from the bits of conversation between me and "Kao Nashi" quoted above, we're wondering what Humakt's definition of "justice" is based on, since it clearly isn't the Orlanthi idea of "my kin, right or wrong", but nor is it a RW/C21 definition (even if we had a clear one of those!). The Rashoron connection gives us some idea of why he gets a "pure" justice, but as yet very little idea of just what it is.

[Jane]

"identity in the face of chaos"

I'd never thought of it exactly that way, but that's spot on for a description of Rashoran's gift. It is, I believe, the only robust answer to the questions of loss, death and evil. E.g., humans can't overcome death, but they can say "I am here, and my dying will re-affirm my identity because I am going to die like myself." The same applies in the face of torture and other horrors.
quote]

Re-reading that, it seems very similar to the way each Heortling is supposed to face I-Fought-We-Won. Insisting on one's own individuality and responsibility, even in the face of obvious overwhelming defeat.

It also seems to have parallels with the end of the green age, when the whole concept of individuality was more or less invented.

Or am I completely on the wrong track here? In both cases,the timing/dating is way out, but the concept seems to be similar.

[nuanarpoq]

I'm thinking that at the philosophical level, two "truth" concepts might be a big deal for those who emulate Hereward. Especially since the core concept for Humakti involves applying Death. Which of the two is Real truth? Who knows?

in Swords we've developed the idea that the key concept for the Herewardi understanding of Humakt is to cleave rather than Death. to cleave entwines the concepts of to seperate (Death) AND to adhere, in the sense of adhering to an oath (Honour).  see the myth Humakt's Oath for more on this.

hereward, navel-gazing worry-wort that he is, has some fixation with stripping away all that is false, seperating wheat from chaff etc, and this is characterised as a spiritual struggle. this correlates to your first truth value.

As I read the source material you guys have linked to, the more Newsalor's brief comment makes sense: there's some serious bad blood between Hereward and the legacy of Rashoran. (By the way, there's no mention of Tarumath in Cults of Terror; must be a King of Dragon Pass thing.) Now, what does that bad blood entail?

... because the second sort of truth does seem a little more Hereward-like, you know? Did Hereward, in rejecting Arkat, actually reject what Nysalor offered, or come closer to it? Such questions always arise when dealing with Nysalor/Gbaji ...

yes, twice Hereward encounters a gbaji figure & rejects him. first he goes to the side of nysalor and learns from him, "and one of the things he learned was that nysalor must be killed". then he meets arkat, introduces him to Humakt, and feels betrayed when arkat does the whole arkat thing. there is the suggestion that hereward was illuminated, despite rejecting both nysalor and arkat. and this relates to the presence of the second kind of truth that you mention. [/url]

[nuanarpoq]

On Rashoron: as you can see from the bits of conversation between me and "Kao Nashi" quoted above, we're wondering what Humakt's definition of "justice" is based on, since it clearly isn't the Orlanthi idea of "my kin, right or wrong", but nor is it a RW/C21 definition (even if we had a clear one of those!). The Rashoron connection gives us some idea of why he gets a "pure" justice, but as yet very little idea of just what it is.

well, as has been pointed out we're gonna quickly get into trouble if we talk in generalities, i think. humakt's concept of justice will vary according to the culture in which he is being worshipped. amongst the orlanthi justice comes from orlanth through andrin, heort etc. humakti have obvious roles within non-humakti communities as jurors, witnesses and so forth. they are seen as impartial, and sheathed within the community their honour and oath magics can serve justice, bu they are not the source of it.

carmanians etc certainly have other concepts. these are all, including the orlanthi perspective above, non-humakti ideas about how humakt relates to justice. various cultures may have ideas that range from humakt being the impassive and neutral judge, jury and executioner, to being completely irrelevant.

within a strictly humakti community, for example a temple, concepts of justice are probably more limited. i would guess there are 2 basic cases that constitute a 'crime', or at least something that demands justice or retribution 'in the name of humakt'.

1. where a humakti has broken a code of honour, including a geasa, or has otherwise violated his relationship with the God.

2. where an outsider or humakti has violated or broken an oath or compact with the temple.

in the first case it may be simple to assume that the god will take his own justice. in the second, that the temple will take theirs, most likely at the point of a sword. however, i reckon that one raison d'etre for humakti 'justice' is that it serves as ritual where-by the 'sinner' or 'wrong-doer' or 'oath-breaker' can cleave to the path of righteousness again. it is probably most similar to a process of ordeals. the temple may recognise that - whilst a sword once broken cannot be remade - a blade may be folded several times during its forging. in other words, even humakti make mistakes, and if the warrior's ordeal can show that it was a mistake he had to make in order to learn from it and in that way cleave closer to the god, then justice rehabilitates him and has served its purpose.

i'm beginning to sound like a danfive xaroni, so perhaps i'm on the wrong path, and anyway my concepts of all this are probably hopelessly waylaid because of my close proximity to hereward ;o)

there is a third way in which a temple may talk about enforcing the 'law' or meteing out 'justice', and that is when fighting cult enemies, particularly the undead. but that is simply enforcing Humakt's will and being in the world. when the heroes in the swords campaign tried the vivamorti cultists in caravan alley they were merely demonstrating the mens' obvious guilt to the wider community, the caravan, so this is an unusual case of using ritual to gain social acceptance for the enforcement of humakt's will.

all of this started in the question 'why didn't humakt help thed?' so acknowledging the heortling context of the question and answer, i would say:
there's before Thed's rape (BTR) and after Thed's rape (ATR). ATR humakt, like all good gods, forbids his true warriors from raping. but that's because he doesn't want them spreading chaos and turning into broo. it may well in fact be social conditioning carried over into the cult rather than a stricture of humakt's per se. after all, there are humakti broo in dorastor. admitedly they are illuminated...

BTR, why should humakt care? he is a god of killing and honour. some aspects of humakt may eschew sexuality, but that doesn't mean he has any interest in the sexual acts of others. honour? well, there may be cultures that view humakt in a chivalric light, but this is a heortling myth and humakt is not the source of justice or refined social behaviour, so why should he act? he probably doesn't feel the shame that orlanth feels, ragnalar being his ex-brother, but why would we expect humakt to act, and not babeester gor, or voria for that matter, or anyone else?

hum. this has been a bit of a ramble. apologies.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Newsalor, I'm not sure if you saw my apology to you on the first page. Take a peek if you missed it.

Your Pelandan game sounds great, and I'd like to know more about it. A new thread about it would be perfect. (The Pelandans seem like the nicest people in Glorantha, don't they?) Please don't consider any dialogue in this forum to suggest that you need to change your game to satisfy anyone. That's not a goal here - keep your game the way you like it, and present stuff from it so that everyone can learn.

I would be especially interested, in this thread, to learn about how the Carmanian worship of Hum'Akt might be involved (or not involved) with the Rashoran/Humakt connection during Godtime. Do Carmanians get mixed up into your characters' business, in your story so far?

Best,
Ron

[Ian Cooper]

What strikes me most (and struck me way back when, in my first reading of Cults of Prax in the late 70s) about Humakt is that he's not an Orlanthi god. He's integrated into the Orlanthi culture and pantheon (as an alternative path), much like he's integrated into dozens of others. Ernalda is similar, especially given a close reading of Glorantha: an introduction to the Hero Wars (2000).

Slight tangent on the Storm Tribe:

The Storm Tribe does seem to be a melting pot. Look at the gods represented in Storm Tribe. The Lightbringers are obviously a combination of religious identities: Chalana Arroy, Issaries, and Lhankor Mhy. Elmal and Heler are all obviously outsiders with myths of how they were included. Perhaps less obviously so is Odayla in Dragon Pass (he is a god of the barbarian peoples north of Dragon Pass, who seems to have been conquered by the Orlanthi. We include a couple of myths concerned with this when discussing Grizzly Peak in the forthcoming Dragon Pass supplement). And Urox might be Orlanth's brother but is very Praxian in origin. Even Vinga seems to have 'emerged' rather than have always been. Looking at Orlanth's cult in Thunder Rebels we discover cults like Yavor and Durev that seem 'adopted' (if you are not sure about the latter read the section on the Durevings in Thunder Rebels).

I suspect that some of this is not saying anything specific about Orlanthi, more about Greg's growing understanding of religions as evolving from and bleeding into one another. Some of it is also part of a transition from an 'elemental' view of religions in Glorantha to a regional one, a view shift which seems to have increased over time (so we have Orlanthi sun gods and Dara Happan storm gods now).

In game terms these broken relationships can be very powerful because it opens up the possibility of all sorts of connections or aspects being rediscovered by heroquesters and experimenters Indeed the rise of the Lunar Empire seems to have been founded in just such experimentation as does the Elmal and Yelmalio conflict as to who is to be the sun God among the Orlanthi, and the references to a more comprehensive Earth pantheon dating as far back as the supplement Snake Pipe Hollow.  I expect much more of this re-emergence and subjugation to be part of the plot of the Hero Wars.

I also think it opens up the possibility to newbies that you can discover new myths connections and ideas without fear, because this is exactly what is happening as the Hero Wars approaches. The differences between Orlanthi accounts of Humakt's leaving the tribe and Orlanth's for example are a great axis of conflict (se p.108 of Storm Tribe for an example).

[Jane]

On Rashoron: as you can see from the bits of conversation between me and "Kao Nashi" quoted above, we're wondering what Humakt's definition of "justice" is based on, since it clearly isn't the Orlanthi idea of "my kin, right or wrong", but nor is it a RW/C21 definition (even if we had a clear one of those!). The Rashoron connection gives us some idea of why he gets a "pure" justice, but as yet very little idea of just what it is.

well, as has been pointed out we're gonna quickly get into trouble if we talk in generalities, i think. humakt's concept of justice will vary according to the culture in which he is being worshipped.

But the whole point of the Rashoron connection is that Humakt also has an absolute definition of truth, justice, and so on that is not dependent on the society he's in, and is the cause of most of his conflicts with that society. After all, according to one version of the story at least, he severed his relationship with Orlanth because of a disagreement over the nature of justice.

Variations on that theme, sure. Variations we can do. YHWV. But I'd really like to get a better handle on the main theme, and I'm not sure how to do it. So far we have, I think, been treating C21 morality as the main theme to some extent (unavoidable). Perhaps if we looked at all the known variations in the cult and established what they have in common?

[nuanarpoq]

But the whole point of the Rashoron connection is that Humakt also has an absolute definition of truth, justice, and so on that is not dependent on the society he's in, and is the cause of most of his conflicts with that society. After all, according to one version of the story at least, he severed his relationship with Orlanth because of a disagreement over the nature of justice.

right, i misphrased that. perhaps i should have said that between cultures concepts of humakt in respect to justice may vary, rather than humakt's concept of justice varying.

Variations on that theme, sure. Variations we can do. YHWV. But I'd really like to get a better handle on the main theme, and I'm not sure how to do it. So far we have, I think, been treating C21 morality as the main theme to some extent (unavoidable). Perhaps if we looked at all the known variations in the cult and established what they have in common?

wow, well, ok. that would be quite a list. let's also think about what we mean by justice.

Just: 1. acting or done in accordance with what is morally right or fair. 2. (of treatment etc.) deserved (a just reward). 3. (of feelings, opinions etc) well grounded.

Justice: 1. just conduct. 2. fairness. 3. the exercise of authority in the maintenance of right. 4. juidicial proceedings. (OED).

Empower Oath, Know Truth, Sense Ambush, Sever Relationship, Shame Coward are the default feats given for the Honour affinity in Storm Tribe.

looking down that list i see connections from Know Truth to Just(1, 2, 3) and Justice (1,2), from Shame Coward to Justice(1) & Just(2), Sense Ambush to Justice(1) & Just(1).

Most of these honour feats appear to have to do with Just in the sense of honourable conduct. Sever Relationship and Empower Oath are means by which this code of honourable conduct can be worked within the host society.

Know Truth could be used to arrive at Justice in the sense of Justice(3&4), but i still maintain that would be a lesser connection.

of all the basic humakti subcults, only 2 get additional honour type feats. Rigsdal gets Identify Traitor & See Past Illusion. Maklamann gets a whole Loyalty affinity. neither of these are suggesting anything radically different from the norm. Rigsdal's feats are variations on Know Truth. Maklamann's affinity is a concentration on a particular aspect of an honour code.

actually, perhaps that's why maklamannis noteworthy. if i understand the rashoran connection it would imply the individual coming to the Truth of their identity on their own, an individual honour code. maklamann's difference is that he sublimated his own honour code to loyalty to his lord. or that loyalty was his honour code.

have to stop now... i'll be back ;)

[Ian Cooper]

[well, as has been pointed out we're gonna quickly get into trouble if we talk in generalities, i think. humakt's concept of justice will vary according to the culture in which he is being worshipped. amongst the orlanthi justice comes from orlanth through andrin, heort etc. humakti have obvious roles within non-humakti communities as jurors, witnesses and so forth. they are seen as impartial, and sheathed within the community their honour and oath magics can serve justice, bu they are not the source of it.

Do you see justice as a primary Humakti concern? Is Humakt concerned with justice as society understands it? I always assumed he was concerned with honor - and that what was what his possession of the truth rune represented.

I have in in mind the Germanic warrior code of the 'comitatus' (see Tacitus, but I also have a great book by Pollington called the English Warrior which has some good info on saxon warrior rituals), but other cultures have their strict warrior codes too, which I am sure we can all identify.

Indeed p.90 of Storm tribe seems to support this assumption. it identifies honor, war, and death as primary areas of action, with justice stated to be concerned mostly with courage and honor. It seems more likely that Humakti justice has more to do with hunting down and killing a coward who deserted his post, perservation of the order of his warrior's community, than with preservation of peace in the wider community.

Obviously to the wider extent that society recognizes or provides the warrior's code of honor Humakt may be involved in the enforcement of 'correct' behaviour, but as you say Orlanth is the source of the rules that allow men to live together. Indeed humakt is not even part of that wider community. Obviously it is for player's in Guy's game to discover, but Hereward may have been more converned with Arkat sullying his honor as a Humatki warrior through his trollish ways thatn with notions of responsiblity to the wider community.

indeed one suspects that the main point that Rashoran revealed to Humakt was that your origin, chaotic or not, does not dictate your chances of upholding a code of honor. Hence the Humakt worshipping broos in Dorastor as seen in Lords of Terror and Dorastor:Land of Doom (and of course p.90 of Storm Tribe states that humakt has no specific dislike of Humakt).

So to return to the rape of Thed, one suspects that Humakt would not have been concerned

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Ian,

Looks like a typo gotcha in your parenthesis about p. 90 in Storm Tribes - clarify? I'm following this discussion very closely and don't want to miss anything.

Regarding Humakt's relationship with Justice in general, I think that in practice, Humakt's relationship with Truth will see action in instances involving justice. In other words, people enmeshed in some issue or conflict involving justice will turn to Truth, and quite likely, Truth as it relates to killing. It could be about who killed someone, or about whether we kill someone for what they've done, or anything like these. The Hereward game seems to be outstandingly focused on generating these issues and grappling with them through the medium of play.

So even if baseline Humakti myths and principles aren't about justice, I can see that Hero Cults and Hero Bands based on Humakti sub-myths or local history will quite likely swing in that direction.

I do agree with you about the Thed issue, by the way, mainly because rape is not killing.

Best,
Ron