Slavery, morality, and changing times

[simon_hibbs]

So once you've got mythic-level slavery issues involved, suddenly characters who are slaves or who own slaves find themselves considering the issue in ways they probably never have before.  To veer over to the Illiad example.  Greek heroquesters might look for ways to resolve the rift between Achillies and Agammemnon -- but if they suddenly turned it around and decided that fighting over the ownership of another human being was the real problem...that'd be a huge eye-opener for the heroes in general and the societies they represented.

That's true, of course there's another obvious resolution to the dilema. Simply kill the slave. Any Humakti in the house?


Simon Hibbs

[Valamir]

To veer over to the Illiad example. Greek heroquesters might look for ways to resolve the rift between Achillies and Agammemnon -- but if they suddenly turned it around and decided that fighting over the ownership of another human being was the real problem...that'd be a huge eye-opener for the heroes in general and the societies they represented.

You know, that's one of the clearest visions of what a HeroQuest is I've seen.  Perhaps it was putting it in terms of a myth that is as well known to me as many of these Gloranthan ones are to some of you, but for the first time I have an idea on what a HeroQuest might really look like.

[Ian Cooper]

I don't think this thread was really supposed to be about the issue of slavery and Glorantha, but more that the premise of the Hero Wars as a Goranthan setting is about the ending of the world ('The Old World is over...') and how players are encouraged to take a moral position on the shape of the new (witness Hero Bands; and I am paraphrasing some comments of Ron's that I concur with here).

The idea is to create an issue which forces the player's to take a position. I understand the principle of alllowing such conflict to occur at the player rather than character level,  but the purpose here is to show that as the Hero Wars take place, the old certanties are being overturned and people will be forced into making decisions.

Here is a slavery example. The clan generator in Orlanth is Dead let's us define many of our clan attitudes, including how we treated refugees in the darkness. We might have taken them in as carls, as cottars, or as thralls. Let us say that our clan took them as thralls, and that we have kept thralls ever since. Men and women with closely clipped hair, and a leather collar are a common site on our tula where they do heavy farm labour, cow milking etc. that in other clans is done by cottars. Possible story lines that might cause us to look at our attitude:

- A hero band inspired by Hendriek Freeman camps out on our tula. Thralls quickly discover that they will take in any who reach them, and by arming free them. The hero band promises compensation, when 'Sartar is free'. The possibility of  a new life makes the other thralls fractious and rebellious. The loss of our thralls threatens the harvest + our clan magic which is empowered by our ancestors actions.
- Lunar slave traders contact us. They offer wealth and a favourable word with the authorities when it comes to deciding taxes if we act as middlemen for them, selling them Heortling slaves, particularly read-headed children for whom there is a huge demand in the Empire.
- A leader rises up among the thralls. With a rousing cry of 'No one can make you do anything' and 'We hate all Emperors' he challenges the clan to free all the slaves, and hand over a portion of our lands and wealth to those who have toiled on them for centuries. The clan is split: some bloodlines support emancipation, but the traditionalist majority don't. The abolitionists then offer to arm any slaves who reach their farms, freeing them. Many thralls flee to thier lands. Kinstrife looms.
- As above, but those who aid the slaves are a neighbours who offer freedom for any slaves who can reach their tula. The  liberated slaves form a hero band whose purpose is to liberate thralls everywhere, by violence as Umath showed us if necessary. They mean to start with our tula. Our thralls support them, though many do so tacitly or by passive protest.




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[simon_hibbs]

The abolitionists then offer to arm any slaves who reach their farms, freeing them. Many thralls flee to thier lands. Kinstrife looms.

One of the armed thralls returns to his master's stead and, in complex and not fully understood circumstances kills him. The people who armed him must legaly also take responsibility for his actions. Maybe it was a player character who armed him? How to deal with the blood guilt?

Also I'm not sure arming a thrall frees them as simply as this. Surely whoever frees the thrall owes the thrall's master recompense?

Simon Hibbs

[Peter Nordstrand]

So once you've got mythic-level slavery issues involved, suddenly characters who are slaves or who own slaves find themselves considering the issue in ways they probably never have before.  To veer over to the Illiad example.  Greek heroquesters might look for ways to resolve the rift between Achillies and Agammemnon -- but if they suddenly turned it around and decided that fighting over the ownership of another human being was the real problem...that'd be a huge eye-opener for the heroes in general and the societies they represented.

That's true, of course there's another obvious resolution to the dilema. Simply kill the slave. Any Humakti in the house?

I don't get it, Simon. How is killing the captured woman going to resolve the conflict between Achilles and Agamemnon?

/Peter

[simon_hibbs]

I don't get it, Simon. How is killing the captured woman going to resolve the conflict between Achilles and Agamemnon?

What are they arguing about? The slave girl. Kill her, and there's nothing to argue about.

Oh sure, you're not going to be very popular, but it depends who you are and what your goals are. If you feel taking the flack for offing her is worth it for the greater good, then it's practicaly a duty.


Simon Hibbs

[Valamir]

Well, killing her really doesn't solve the problem per se.  In the story, she is nothing more than the catalyst which finally brings the growing resentment between these two to the fore.  If it wasn't over her...it probably would have been over the copper pots.

About the only thing killing her would accomplish is getting both of them to unite against you -- at least for that brief moment it takes for two of the ancient worlds greatest heroes to off you   :-)

[simondale]

More substantively, in what ways can the issue of slavery be utilized in character concepts and scenario creation, such that HeroQuest play is realized in full?

Hello

Waha's Survival Covenant set out a very clear human-master/animal-slave line that forms the basis for nomad tribal culture and survival in Prax.  A Gern (Herdman) blessed/cursed with intelligence could make for a wonderfully tragic character to put in opposition to the nomad tribes and Waha's covenant.

Possible goals might be  "to rescue others of my tribe, the Gern"
or "be recognised as human"
or "find our herd animal and join the survival covenant"
or "free all the herd beasts across Prax"
or "take our rightful place over the morocanth"

As I'm typing and mulling this I like the idea more an more. The reactions of various nomad tribes to the existance of an intelligent Gern would be interesting, but the extension of the idea to reactions to an intelligent *herd animal* would probably put the willies up many a tribal ring. "If it could happen to the Morocanth..."

--Simon

[simon_hibbs]

As I'm typing and mulling this I like the idea more an more. The reactions of various nomad tribes to the existance of an intelligent Gern would be interesting, but the extension of the idea to reactions to an intelligent *herd animal* would probably put the willies up many a tribal ring. "If it could happen to the Morocanth..."

In RQ, praxian magic to awaken the inteligence of a herd animal (including her men) was relatively common magic for rune-level characters.

Mythicaly, and therefore magicaly I don't think having inteligence invalidates the survival pact, an inteligent herd beast is still subservient to it's master.


Simon Hibbs

[Mac Logo]

In RQ, praxian magic to awaken the inteligence of a herd animal (including her men) was relatively common magic for rune-level characters.
Simon Hibbs

(My emphasis on Simon's quote.)

Typo, Freudian Slip or are you trying to say something about Praxian Men?
:)

Seriously tho', just how many Rune Level Praxian's will carried that spell around - it was one use 2 point divine magic. That puts it nearly into (sub) cult secret range of power.

Characters running around, freeing their herd beast relatives would be delightfully tragic, I have to agree with that.

Graeme

[simondale]

Mythicaly, and therefore magicaly I don't think having inteligence invalidates the survival pact, an inteligent herd beast is still subservient to it's master.
Simon Hibbs

Hi Simon

You're absolutely right! All intelligent Herdbeasts wouldn't normally be an issue. Everyone knows that they're a herd beast no matter how smart they are and if they get uppity it's to the cooking pot.

I was thinking more of the abnormallly heroic herdbeast that says
"Hey! Why am *I* the servant? I'm gonna do something about this stinky situation"
and then starts or joins a heroband that really cannot be ignored...


Cheers,
Simon

[simon_hibbs]

I was thinking more of the abnormallly heroic herdbeast that says
"Hey! Why am *I* the servant? I'm gonna do something about this stinky situation" and then starts or joins a heroband that really cannot be ignored...

Sure, I realise that. I'm just pointing out that such a beast would have all the mythic and magical power of the survival covenant against it. To succeed it would have to destroy or completely revolutionise praxian culture and religion for the nomads and beasts.

One possible approach would be to resurect Genert, if that is possible, and thus return prax to it's fertile state thus redering the survival covenant irrelevent. This has been discussed on the Digest, but I think approachign it from the point of view of a herd animal is novel.


Simon Hibbs

[simondale]

Sure, I realise that. I'm just pointing out that such a beast would have all the mythic and magical power of the survival covenant against it. To succeed it would have to destroy or completely revolutionise praxian culture and religion for the nomads and beasts.

Hi Simon

I utterly agree, and the sentence above is exactly why I think the idea would make a great game conflict. What could be more world changing than attempting to overturn or change an entire culture?

"The master's world is ending, in the new world we'll be free"

I mean as a player I know all the Gloranthan reason's the character would fail but I'm not going to let them shut down what could be a great game.

--

Thanks for pointing Genert out. It prodded me to remember Garzeen(a subcult of Issaries)'s connection to the god.

(For anybody interested,  the basics of Garzeen and Genert's connection are at
http://www.glorantha.com/library/religions/cult-issaries.html
in the section on Issaries' children.)


Cheers,
Simon

(edited for spelling and to add 'attempting to' in the top sentence because success isn't the only satisfying outcome to play :) ).

[Donald]

Sure, I realise that. I'm just pointing out that such a beast would have all the mythic and magical power of the survival covenant against it. To succeed it would have to destroy or completely revolutionise praxian culture and religion for the nomads and beasts.
Simon Hibbs

Not really, the beast would just have to HeroQuest to alter the outcome of the contest. Probably either by cheating or catching the humans cheating. Not easy but certainly easier than changing the lifestyle of the entire region. Perhaps this is what the Morocanth did or what Gern are trying to do now.

[newsalor]

The Gern, Herdmen that is, really can't do anything sensible. They are animals.