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This is an open question to any convention organizers that lurk about on the Forge: Would it be possible to create a demo table in the RPG rooms of conventions (or in the hallway approach to said rooms) rather than forcing small RPG publishers to buy a dealers table and attempt to demo from there?

I know that some cons do offer "demo rooms". This type of atmosphere, one that stresses actual play, is much more important and beneficial to small press rpgs than an expensive dealers table that competes with glossy rpg retailers and other flashy vendors.

I've found that, unless the dealers room is very large and well-trafficked, we just don't get a lot of people willing to sit down a try a game coming through the dealers room. Whereas if we were stationed in the RPG room we would be among people who are waiting to game or just coming from a game.

As a small press publisher who goes to quite a lot of cons these days, I would absolutely be willing to pay for said demo table--perhaps a reasonable portion of the dealers room fee.

Such a sanctioned area--promoted by the con--that encourages varied and constant actual play could be a great source of fun for gamers and exposure for small press games.

whaddya think?
-Luke

I've volunteered with DragonFlight in the past, and we've had some dealings with this kind of issue.

First, one of the primary reasons for dealer's tables is to keep all the money transactions in one place.  If you have to have a dealer table to sell, then it's very clear who's allowed to sell what where.  Otherwise, you run the risk of turning the entire convention into a flea market with folks spreading Magic cards all over the halls.  (At least, conventional wisdom says this might happen, and Lord knows there are a few violators even with pretty strict policies).

Now, at DragonFlight, we had a request like this that we accomodated a few years back.  Basically, we sold vendor tables and let them set up in the different RPG/miniatures/card games areas.  The result was disastrous for the vendors (all of them).  Without a central place to go for shopping, attendees simply didn't shop.  Additionally, vendors only got foot traffic from people playing those kinds of games.  And, while RPG players probably buy most of the RPGs, the bottom line is that no one (even the small publishers like Crucifiction Games) benefitted.

What we've done, however, is to sell tables based in the largest room at the convention, which also serves duty for board games.  This puts a lot of gaming tables out there, and companies can run demos on those tables, though (right now anyway) they can only schedule games in those slots for the convention book if they're running board games.

If DragonFlight actually lets me run the dealer stuff this year, what I'm going to push for are three things:
1) a "flea market" of cheap tables ($5 or $10 an hour) available to anyone, sold on a first-come, rotating basis (so that you have to relinquish your table after an hour if there are people waiting to get one).  This would help people unload used products cheaply.  It's been very effective at Strategicon in LA, but I haven't seen it adopted elsewhere (partly because of city/state business license issues).
2) allow the scheduling of games in a section of that hall reserved for company-sponsored demos by vendors with a regular table.
3) allow the scheduling of events at dealer tables (since our database doesn't currently do this).

1 would be more expensive than a vendor booth if you wanted to be set up through the whole convention, but would be cheaper for people who won't be there the whole time.

DragonFlight is a fairly small convention (about 600 attendees) and it's possible to get your table free if you take advantage of all the incentives we've offered in the past, so I don't think cost is really an issue that needs further work.

I think that at least at small cons, instead of what seems to be the typical layout, a large room that included: the dealers area, any flea market stuff, any auction stuff, and substantial pick-up gaming space, all together in a sort of bazar would be valuable.

Luke could be selling BW in his offical space, and send interested players into the open gaming area with a GM to play a demo on demand.  People who aren't in a scheduled event would have even more reason to cluster into the general mercantile area which is good for the vendors.  And everyone would know where the appropriate place for setting up unscheduled games was.  It seems like a win-win.

I guess that dealers would still have to be somewhat segregated so that room-partitions could be drawn after hours so that the rest of the room would remain accessible.  But if the layout of the venue could work it right,  this would be a great resource.  

I don't know what the needs of the convention are with regard to only allowing certain people to sell based on having bought the privilege.  How much of a small con's budget comes from the vendors?

Chris

At UberCon II we had a pretty good set-up. The room was set-up with the LAN, minitures adn CCGs in the middle and us vendors all around the edges.

Luckily the CCG tables weren't heavily used, so I could watch the table while another person(Luke) ran demos for people who were interested.

I swear this even helped my t-shirt sales because people became interested in our booth because we were doing things. A little demo will gather a couple extra people watching. After the demo several people would walk over to the table and would look around.

I don't like the couple times where we have been in a room that is set away from the action and the foot traffic.

Quote from: Christopher WeeksI don't know what the needs of the convention are with regard to only allowing certain people to sell based on having bought the privilege.  How much of a small con's budget comes from the vendors?

It's hard to judge this specifically, but for DragonFlight, I'd estimate something around 10% comes from dealers directly from booths and advertising.  However, it's worth noting that a lot of attendees come to shop with or meet vendors (Strategicon even sells one-day vendor hall only passes for $5).  Vendors also donate a lot of stuff for things like the auction that generate revenue.

Anyway, the revenue isn't really the point (though every little bit helps).  The main thing is that you don't want your convention taken over by squatters trying to sell random stuff.  Used books and Magic cards are obviously a big thing, but I've seen people trying to sell various crafts as well.  In the past, we've had people try to require the purchase of items (like Magic cards) at events.  Even worse, most conventions cannot sell food or drink except through the hotel or whatever venue they have.  A rogue person selling Cokes in the lobby could get everyone in trouble.

I wonder what the cost/benefit looks like by dramatically reducing the cost of being a "dealer" (perhaps to nothing) at one of these cons.  If you could get more dealers, wouldn't it be more valuable to more participants, increasing the take for participants?  And could you just restrict sales (by anyone) to the bazar room as I described above?  You could even still sell the more desirable locations, for the more proffesional vendors, while allowing others to do their thing.

Chris

The Problem with Dealers tables is Budget. While I can offer a company a nice table or table space/Slots in the Corporate demo area, dealers tables have to come out of my budget so It makes it a bit harder to say "here have a dealers table. Mayhaps it's just the con I work for but for me it's a matter of budget. Now Sharing a table can sometimes work out if the companies like doing that sort of thing. I was impressed with the Indie Games/BW/NYC Nerds table at Lollagazebo. I might try and work something like that out for I-CON if I can er... Budget it.

my 2 centavos

El Dreggo

Quote from: Dreggdealers tables have to come out of my budget

What does that mean?  Maybe I'm zoning on some fundamental and obvious point, but I don't get it.

Chris

Quote from: Christopher Weeks

Quote from: Dreggdealers tables have to come out of my budget

What does that mean?  Maybe I'm zoning on some fundamental and obvious point, but I don't get it.

Chris

Just means that as coordinator I can easily make space and add a table in the Demo Playing room, but to get space in the dealers room cost money and If I want one I have to pay for it.
Not that I am a cheapo, but I have to balance out my guests and others who are coming as well.
Like I  said Chris I will try my darnedest to work with the Indie-Forge people coming. I liked what they did at Lollagazebo.

Hiya Dregg!

Glad to see you kickin around here. Perhaps you could explain to the folks your role at I-CON and the setup of your Dealer's Room vs the Demo Room?

Because, contrary to Justin's experience, I've found that only by actually demoing my game does it sell. And it sells better when I sell it from my demo table in the rpg room.

I was curious how you deal with this at I-CON.

-Luke

Quote from: Christopher WeeksI wonder what the cost/benefit looks like by dramatically reducing the cost of being a "dealer" (perhaps to nothing) at one of these cons.

This idea would not be feasible at my local con (Winter War in Champaign, IL).  Each table has to be rented from the convention center.  Giving away tables (or drastically cutting prices) would mean a hike in ticket prices for the gamers.  In exchange for having access to the attendees, the dealers are subsidizing the ticket prices.

QuoteIf you could get more dealers, wouldn't it be more valuable to more participants, increasing the take for participants?

Actually, the waiting list to get dealer space at Winter War is big enough that we could probably fill the entire con with dealer's tables and have no room to game.  That doesn't exactle serve the gamers' needs either.

My con gives demo space away, but solely at staff discretion.  If there are people willing to run for pay games at every available table, chances are you won't get to demo anything in that particular slot.  If the space is available, you can probably get a table to run a free demo at no cost.

Quote from: abzuHiya Dregg!

Glad to see you kickin around here. Perhaps you could explain to the folks your role at I-CON and the setup of your Dealer's Room vs the Demo Room?

Because, contrary to Justin's experience, I've found that only by actually demoing my game does it sell. And it sells better when I sell it from my demo table in the rpg room.

I was curious how you deal with this at I-CON.

-Luke

Well I-CON has 3 levels in a odd sorta way...
The 1st level is the Actual Dealers Room, this is a table were you will have the most traffic, in most cases it is game stores, and Weaponsmiths, and all those retail.
2nd Level is Corporate or Fan Table... A good example of this is Voltaire the Goth Geek musician. He sets up his little fan table, signs autographs and sells his CD's. This gets tons of traffic too as it is in the Reg area, but can be over looked as well.
3rd you have the Artist alley, and those sort of things.

Now Demo area is different, I can speak with athority because this is year two of Demo team, as it is my baby. We get an area that is before the actual RPG area's so people hit us first before going to play Gamma World or D&D, we stand out in all our corporate glory, with logo's and schtuff. We do 4 hour blocks of Demo's of either RPG's or 4 hours of a continuous card game. The Companies back us with goodies and as Psudo reps of these companies we give away product. We are there if a company cannot make it in person, and my team is assigned a product and they learn it, live it and love it for 3 days.
It cost nothing to Demo a game at I-CON (just got to be nice to the Demo Team Coordinator with offers of Skyclad witches and Jelly filled Weasels), but It is a first come first serve thing, and I will be closing the Doors soon (we have a great line up, but space may be an issue)
My role is simple
1. I get companies to want to support our convention with Prize support
2. I put together a team to run Demos of product for said companies
3. I make sure all the above gets done
4. I travel to other cons in the name of I-CON and Sponsors (My trip to Lollagazebo was courtesy of Eden Studios and Atlas Games)

It's pretty stressful as well, I would like to dedicate every waking moment to this, but real life sucks!

QuoteFirst, one of the primary reasons for dealer's tables is to keep all the money transactions in one place. If you have to have a dealer table to sell, then it's very clear who's allowed to sell what where. Otherwise, you run the risk of turning the entire convention into a flea market with folks spreading Magic cards all over the halls. (At least, conventional wisdom says this might happen, and Lord knows there are a few violators even with pretty strict policies).

I think this selling on the sly happens at every con and I don't think it is worth it to crack down on it specifically.

But I fail to see the evil of a con-sanctioned, company-paid-for, demo space in the rpg area.

Also, having the dealers in a room where gaming is happening definitely helps lots. The set-up at Ubercon 2 was better than most other small cons i've seen.

-L

I can say about Vericon:

No "Dealer's Table" space, and therefore no charges therein. (Of course, "infomal" exchanges will happen, and I informally encourage that.)

We do have demo-room space (integrated into the Open Gaming rooms or nearby), and we can feature demos in the schedule to draw more attention to them. (IMHO running a hot indy demo right next to the open gaming will attract attention in itself, but in any case, its planned out.)

Quote from: Christopher WeeksI wonder what the cost/benefit looks like by dramatically reducing the cost of being a "dealer" (perhaps to nothing) at one of these cons.  If you could get more dealers, wouldn't it be more valuable to more participants, increasing the take for participants?  And could you just restrict sales (by anyone) to the bazar room as I described above?

At Marmalade Dog we have done exactly this for many years.  Vendor tables are free (with a suggested donation to our charity auction) and vendors do not pay admission.  It has worked out quite well and next year any vendor who attends is in for a treat as we are adding a third day and doubling the floor space on Saturday to accomodate an expected 300 attendees.