Crucible: Publish or Perish (forge spinoff)

[greyorm]

This I dig way more than your first explanation of what you're after. This is something I could go for. However, I do have the question: how is it all that different from the Forge?

Alright, I can probably answer my own question: dedication? Correct?
The point is to have a team of individuals supporting one another and hashing out a variety of projects together -- and dedicated to it.

Second difference, game designs are archived, or stored in some fashion...sort of a "project database" of sorts, which I very much dig (there's lots of gems on the Forge I wish I could go back and dig up easily, but either don't have the time or an easy place to start looking).

Anything else I'm missing?

BTW, I salute your excellent attitude:

@ i was going to reply to each post but i found myself angry and trying to be right.  i was also hearing what sounds like anger and fear from some of you.  But being right is less important than getting what i want and getting results.  So instead i will resubmit my proposal in a different way...

2) Open Source/Freeware ethics can produce great results

I agree. In fact, I just finished helping with "Liber Mysterium" -- a Netbook for d20 -- contributing to the editing, illustration, and even a couple sections of written material. I personally think the book rivals (if not exceeds in a few cases) published for-pay materials currently on the shelf.

4) That for some (not all) people, explicit structures such as goals, deadlines and expectations of peers can motivate people to do more

Yes, yes, and yes. I know I'd work more on certain things if I had people buzzing in my ear about them. Support and interest are very good things.

6) No one is an expert at drawing AND mechanics AND copyright law AND writing AND so on.

Well, er, no one has the time to do it all, at any rate.

Those items I haven't said anything about, I agree with, but having nothing more to add than that, I didn't bother quoting.

8) Having high expectations and holding people accountible tends to yield better results

Here's my problem: How?
Holding people accountable indicates some sort of enforceable reward-punishment system which actually means something to the individual who is rewarded by or punished by it.

In this case, the rewards are pretty obvious. It's the "punishments" I'm curious about: how, exactly, does one hold someone accountable for something in this setting?

Guilt can go a long way if someone cares, but guilt is incredibly easy for humans to write off and excuse, and thus loses its effectiveness.

[LordSmerf]

Here's my interpretation on the whole motivation thing.  The reason most of my projects fall by the wayside or disappear into design limbo is that i am rarely convinced of their value.  When i first come up with an idea i'm like "wow, that would be cool, i'll get to work."  I get some stuff together, toss a post up on the Forge, and watch it die at less than 10 posts.

The main advantage i see in the idea for the Crucible is that there's a commitment from everyone involved to not only read, but provide feedback for everyone else.  If the idea is a good one, the feedback will reflect that and the project will probably take on a life of its own since it's good.  If the idea's not so hot, it will either be improved by discussion or eliminated.

The Forge isn't able to do this because it's really something we do in our spare time, we look at designs that interest us personally.  We provide feedback on the things that really grab our attention.  There's nothing wrong with that, but i feel that a more involved setup where everyone is expected to contribute something to pretty much everything would be great.  Of course this would seem to indicate that there's a practical upper limit on the number of people who can be involved since there's only so much time to devote to this kind of stuff...

That's me...

Thomas

[C. Edwards]

Of course this would seem to indicate that there's a practical upper limit on the number of people who can be involved since there's only so much time to devote to this kind of stuff...

Sure, but there's no reason that the participants can't be formed into cells of X number of people. That way you have the intimate feedback of a small group but also the support of the larger body. If you wanted to shake things up you could rotate a cell member after they finish a project, or have monthly "convocations" where each cell presents one of the projects from a member of that cell to the whole group.  The possibilities are many. The mind boggles.  :)

-Chris

[LordSmerf]

Actually, i was thinking of some sort of cell idea, but i must say that yours is much more ambitious (not to mention just better) than mine.  Rotating cells, propositions, etc. very nice.  Anyway, i think it may be time to take this one step farther...  We should probably begin moving this over to the Connections forum.  I think we may be ready to start getting some real commitment...

Thomas

[Paul Czege]

Hey Thomas,

The reason most of my projects fall by the wayside or disappear into design limbo is that i am rarely convinced of their value.

Now that's a topic for conversation.

The point at which I knew My Life with Master had value was the very first playtest at GenCon 2002. It was a seven page document that was mostly just the core mechanics and the Endgame and Epilogue stuff. It lacked Master creation rules entirely.

I knew by the reactions of the players. And I knew because I'd played widely and determinedly and could evaluate it against other games. After that playtest, there wasn't a doubt in my mind that it had value.

The main advantage i see in the idea for the Crucible is that there's a commitment from everyone involved to not only read, but provide feedback for everyone else.

I don't think a forced feedback scheme will work to produce motivation. Throughout most of the late 90s, a buddy of mine pretty much constantly pitched us on various game ideas. Ostensibly, he was assessing interest. Truly, he was seeking an external source for the motivation he personally lacked. We had lots of conversations, and made up lots of characters, but he never ever ran a game. There is no such thing as an external source of motivation.

So, if not forced feedback, then what?

Greg's policy in Epiphany is unarguably practical. You can write and release whatever you want for free. But only BTRC can publish and make money from it. It is a reasonable policy that makes complete sense. But it's hard to get jazzed about it. In my mind, Ron's mini-supplement program is generously respectful of the folks who take part. So it excites you when you hear about it, and you want to take part.

My recommendation would be that the Crucible have a generously respectful policy that allows folks to publish and sell designs based on the stuff created by the members. The membership you want are folks who get excited about seeing their creative work and their mechanical notions used in published games. The membership you want are folks who are motivated to contribute more to the community, and to produce and publish complete games of their own when they see their clever ideas and creative work being used by others. "Dammit, why didn't I do that game," is the response you want...followed by a renewed personal commitment to their own idling game projects.

Paul

[apeiron]

@ Thanks again everyone for your contributions to this thread.  i am formulating a response that will reply to all this great material.  You've given me lots to consider.  You guys rock.  i think this idea will work.

@ While i'm working on that, what do you think of the name Crucible?  i'm trying to capture the idea of concentrating creative energy, combining different elements to create new materials.

[apeiron]

Apeiron,

For the Pool, go to the "Resource Library" link at the top of your screen and search on "pool".

Check out The Creative Commons for ideas on lawyer-vetted alternative licensing.

Invisible City Productions' Games Section puts out a new game every month. They seem to really be into the whole free-as-in-freedom/open source trip. The games I've checked out have been pretty neat, running the gamut from parlor games to board games, with some role-play elements on occasion.

Of course, I never get tired of tooting the wiki horn--do a search at google on "wiki" and feast your mind on a technology that facilitates collaboration very nicely.

I think this looks like a neat project. Kudos to all for de-escalating the snarky beginnings of this thread.

--JB

@ Creative Commons provides the Copyleft that will be my preferred form of legal mumbo jumbo.  It's good stuff, i will head over to the publishing section to discuss it further.

@ i will looking into the invisible city stuff.  Wiki might be another tool i would want availible for teams.  

@ It is all to easy to slide into the snarkiness, being a natural at debate.  But i have gotten better at being aware of my own feelings and intentions, and thereby at controlling those impulses.  i think my initial post had some wording that came across all wrong.  It's going really well now.

[apeiron]

Alright, I can probably answer my own question: dedication? Correct?
The point is to have a team of individuals supporting one another and hashing out a variety of projects together -- and dedicated to it.

Second difference, game designs are archived, or stored in some fashion...sort of a "project database" of sorts, which I very much dig (there's lots of gems on the Forge I wish I could go back and dig up easily, but either don't have the time or an easy place to start looking).

Anything else I'm missing?

2) Open Source/Freeware ethics can produce great results

I agree. In fact, I just finished helping with "Liber Mysterium" -- a Netbook for d20 -- contributing to the editing, illustration, and even a couple sections of written material. I personally think the book rivals (if not exceeds in a few cases) published for-pay materials currently on the shelf.

4) That for some (not all) people, explicit structures such as goals, deadlines and expectations of peers can motivate people to do more

Yes, yes, and yes. I know I'd work more on certain things if I had people buzzing in my ear about them. Support and interest are very good things.

8) Having high expectations and holding people accountible tends to yield better results

Here's my problem: How?
Holding people accountable indicates some sort of enforceable reward-punishment system which actually means something to the individual who is rewarded by or punished by it.

@ Dedication - Exactly, i want people who are motivated and motivate each other on to further greatness.  It is not about harping at people, or having power over others, but each person knows that everyone there is there to make great games and has given their word that they will help and be productive.  

@ Project database - This is key to crucible's purpose, making everything readily availible over the long haul.  Threads come and go, links die.  i want a searchible archive to protect the hard work of all the teams, otherwise, why bother.  People like to see their names in print or attached to important  and cool things.  Plus instead of one person having to store something on Tripod or the like, worrying about stability, longevity and ease of use, the crucible keeps it there for you and everyone else.

@ Liber - i will look into that.  My hope is that open source work can change the art form and bring all those nascent Gary Gygax's, Steve Jackson's and Mark Rhien-Hagen's out into the light.  The talent is there, it just needs a place to take root and bloom.

@ Structure - i have experienced on many occasions that when i am given a goal and a deadline and the time/tools to do the work, i rise to the challenge.  If i have some art project that is just for me, i may or may not start, may or may not finish, and i may or may not do a good job.  But give me an audience that is expecting great things from me, by monday, i will knock it out of the park.  i have seen this in other people

@ Accountibility - Yes, i need to explain this part further and i will when i come back from my next errand.

[apeiron]

Here's my interpretation on the whole motivation thing.  The reason most of my projects fall by the wayside or disappear into design limbo is that i am rarely convinced of their value.  When i first come up with an idea i'm like "wow, that would be cool, i'll get to work."  I get some stuff together, toss a post up on the Forge, and watch it die at less than 10 posts.

The main advantage i see in the idea for the Crucible is that there's a commitment from everyone involved to not only read, but provide feedback for everyone else.  If the idea is a good one, the feedback will reflect that and the project will probably take on a life of its own since it's good.  If the idea's not so hot, it will either be improved by discussion or eliminated.

The Forge isn't able to do this because it's really something we do in our spare time, we look at designs that interest us personally.  We provide feedback on the things that really grab our attention.  There's nothing wrong with that, but i feel that a more involved setup where everyone is expected to contribute something to pretty much everything would be great.  Of course this would seem to indicate that there's a practical upper limit on the number of people who can be involved since there's only so much time to devote to this kind of stuff...

That's me...

Thomas

@ Motivation - Word!  See on Crucible, everyone would be "all up in your kool aid" asking you for the next installment, asking if they can help you, and you could ask them to help.  As the end of the month approached people should be saying "Thomas, what's the status on your project?"  A matter of not letting people off the hook.  Lets say that you take the idea as far as you can/care to take it.  Someone else might ask you to pass them that baton and keep the project alive.  That is what happens in the Linux community.

@ Commitment/feedback - Yep, your team (perhaps to be called "cell", i like that term) will be expected to let you know what they think of your idea and will help in there own way, in turn you provide that support to others.  Every idea would be viewed as a seed, it's potential is limited only by the ecology of ideas, by the care given to it.  Even a small idea could grow into something bigger and better.  Give it some vitamin LordSmerf, some mineral Greyworm, a pinch of Apeiron, and watch it go.

@ Diminishing Returns - This is where cells come in.  Maybe you can't be cranking out your own project and helping all ALL the other projects.  So perhaps you express your commitments to certain projects, or maybe your involvement in my project is as simple as giving it a once over and giving a gut response.  Perhaps the whole feedback/help thing is on a weekly basis.  Once a week i have to help someone with something.  We'll work on those details later, but you bring up a great point.

[apeiron]

Hey Thomas,

The reason most of my projects fall by the wayside or disappear into design limbo is that i am rarely convinced of their value.

Now that's a topic for conversation.

The point at which I knew My Life with Master had value was the very first playtest at GenCon 2002. It was a seven page document that was mostly just the core mechanics and the Endgame and Epilogue stuff. It lacked Master creation rules entirely.

I knew by the reactions of the players. And I knew because I'd played widely and determinedly and could evaluate it against other games. After that playtest, there wasn't a doubt in my mind that it had value.

The main advantage i see in the idea for the Crucible is that there's a commitment from everyone involved to not only read, but provide feedback for everyone else.

I don't think a forced feedback scheme will work to produce motivation. Throughout most of the late 90s, a buddy of mine pretty much constantly pitched us on various game ideas. Ostensibly, he was assessing interest. Truly, he was seeking an external source for the motivation he personally lacked. We had lots of conversations, and made up lots of characters, but he never ever ran a game. There is no such thing as an external source of motivation.

So, if not forced feedback, then what?

Greg's policy in Epiphany is unarguably practical. You can write and release whatever you want for free. But only BTRC can publish and make money from it. It is a reasonable policy that makes complete sense. But it's hard to get jazzed about it. In my mind, Ron's mini-supplement program is generously respectful of the folks who take part. So it excites you when you hear about it, and you want to take part.

My recommendation would be that the Crucible have a generously respectful policy that allows folks to publish and sell designs based on the stuff created by the members. The membership you want are folks who get excited about seeing their creative work and their mechanical notions used in published games. The membership you want are folks who are motivated to contribute more to the community, and to produce and publish complete games of their own when they see their clever ideas and creative work being used by others. "Dammit, why didn't I do that game," is the response you want...followed by a renewed personal commitment to their own idling game projects.

Paul

@ Convinced of Value - Yes, this is what i hope crucible will create in its members.  A feeling of "hey, this may just be a doodle in a my notebook, but if i post it on the crucible a cell will form around me and they will help me make this thing great".  Members would see the potential of all members to do amazing things, and most importantly to see that in themselves.

@ External Motivation - That is a profound statement.  Others can egg you on or offer moral support or warm fuzzies.  But in the end it is up to you do either DO IT or NOT.  You will either ship your product (on time), or you won't.  i would want to instill a sense of pride in the members, where the deadline or even the respect/jeers of the others is no longer an issue.  People will do it because they know they can and they want to make good games, because they see the value of mutual support.

@ Generously Respectful - Tell me more about this.  It sounds like something good to emulate.

@ Your recommendation - You took the words right out of my mind!

@ i get the feeling that i have expressed my idea clearly enough and that there is a niche waiting to be filled here.  i'm going to research forums getting this started.