Another way that sim play is downright weird...

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Let me see if I get what Pete is getting at?

I played in a WFRP game. My character was a High Elven prince, a son of the Phoenix King. And a Dwarf friend who wielded an elvish blade with a dwarven rune on it.

Anyone who know, well, the typical elf-dwarf deal know that they do not get along at all and this character sort of flies into the face of that. Especially given the character's social standing.

It was not for any sort of gamist agenda nor a narrativist agenda (although I suppose a theme could be dragged out of it somewhere) It was more just exploration of this odd character in the world.

[Gordon C. Landis]

Pete,

Sounds great to me!  I'd just add that a character actually *can't* "completely satisfiy a creative agenda before play."   A player might want to USE a character they created that way, and if they do that in certain ways, it will end up frustrating the agenda for everyone else (and maybe for them too).  It may just be a quibble, but coming out of that narrativism/ fatalism thread, it seemed like an important one.

Gordon

[pete_darby]

Well, we can get into a whole other thread about whether a creative agenda can ever be wholly satisfied at any point (I certainly hope not), but the point is a very good one. The truly frustrating characters in the examples above are created with the intention of "solving" a game at the outset.

And yes, Jack, that's just the sort of character I was thinking of at the outset, which apparently confounds one aspect of sim (preserve the dream), but works through intensifying another (rabid curiostiy & exploration).

I'm still not entirely happy with my exapmle of the character that is created with the intent of fulfilling sim agenda but in fact confounds it, but other wise I'm in happy camper land now.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

I'm still not entirely happy with my exapmle of the character that is created with the intent of fulfilling sim agenda but in fact confounds it, but other wise I'm in happy camper land now.

The thing to keep in mind is that a sim agenda is not sim agenda. That is one agenda is not all agendas in that mode.

What we're talking about here, specifically, is exploration of character. Consider, for a moment, Baywatch the RPG, for example. One sim agenda in the exploration of character vein is to find out what it's like to be a lifeguard. What sort of person would be responsible for the lives of strangers? Another agenda, also exploration of character would be a lifeguard who is afraid of water. This is exploring a different dynamic of the character or, perhaps, just trying to put an interesting twist on the character because after the fifth regular lifeguard, it gets boring.

So, there's nothing wrong with the drunkard, womanizing paladin with a gambling problem. It only flies in the face of sim if a paladin *must be* Lawful Good. In this case, the sim agenda could be about trying to remain good when you are a slave to your vices.