TFOB: Designing Schools

[Sneaky Git]

So I'm working on designing some specific masters and the schools they represent. The Current project is converting what little we know of actual historical masters into a few key examples, and coming up with stats and info that is appropriate and as accurate as possible (which isn't much).

What I'm really doing here is putting out a request list for what you'd like to see (or not see) in a selection of fighting schools and their masters--both who and what.

Jake

Coolness.  And I'd like to toss another "me too" into the mix concerning the comments made by Ralph and Lance.  Good Stuff.

As far as Japanese masters other than Miyamoto Musashi, what about Yagyu Jubei Mitsuyoshi (or Mitsutoshi, depends on where you look...)?  He was not only a swordmaster, but also a government inspector of sorts, and possibly a spy for the Tokugawa...as well as being the first son of the swordmaster for the first three Tokugawa Shogun (Ieyasu, Hidetada, and Iemitsu).  Or his father (the swordmaster - a liscensed master in several ryu) or grandfather, for that matter.  And there are plenty of others to choose from.  Tsukahara Bokuden.  Kamiizumi Nobutsuna.  Takeda Shingen.  Bah.  Too many.

Chris

[Vanguard]

I'm with Overdrive on this one.

I'm happily relieved, if I understand correctly, that Jake won't be designing School specific Proficiencies. Nor even, bonuses particular schools might have in certain proficiencies.

I enjoy TROS' freedom. Whatever perculiarity of attack or defence you might conceive of is happily translated through the current Combat system. I'm wary of bonuses being arbitrality assigned to you just because you've trained with such-and-such. Nor that anyone who hasn't be precluded from certain styles of attack, or be intrinsically worse at a particular techinque. No matter how much I train under that waterfall, I'll never have that +1 bonus in aggressive stance like that guy what trained under Captain Swordy has.

I'd be happier with the meta approach to it - how a school's distinctive characteristics might be played in-game. The Savaxen masters emphasize group-based tactics, and aggressive sword & shield techniques. Whilst (can't remember appropriate country off-hand) another might favour a more indivualistic fighting style, concentrating on the use of subtle attacks, and a more teasing style inviting enemies into committing reckless strikes.

But has anyone thought of SAs?

I've considered using SAs as curses and such. Greedy player picks up the Daemon's discarded sword. He is now inflicted with anti-conscience for example, or the SA to repel people who love him. Acting against increases the negative modifier, etc...

But SAs for schools...? Maybe cheesy?

Training under an uber-ninja-master allows you the option of an SA which favours stealth tactics, but punishes you for the ooposite. The above Savaxen example rewards you for acting as part of a group, raiding the Picti coasts with your mates, wading through fat villagers through the use of heavy sword and shield. Just don't work well for rapier-duels in crowded streets.

You could see it as a developed mindset, a practiced way of dealing with combat. Acting against it would prove awkward and cumbersome. And, like any other SA, could be discarded in time.

It'd be great for NPCs anyway :) Gemmel's "Hundred" for example. "Star Wars'" Stormtroopers, a tribe united by purpose, etc...


Take care

[Salamander]

[and I'm blanking on the German wrestling fectbuch that Talhoffer borrowed heavily from (i.e. stole wholeheartedly).
Does that help any?

I believe that was Ott's work...

[Ashton]

[and I'm blanking on the German wrestling fectbuch that Talhoffer borrowed heavily from (i.e. stole wholeheartedly).
Does that help any?

I believe that was Ott's work...

Yeah, it was. Sorry. Law school rots the brain you know.

[Ingenious]

It's 2:34 AM so sue me if this is slightly off-topic here...
but I've been wondering about naginata's, the weapon-art thereof, the various schools and such... just wondering if that was going to be in TFOB.

[Jake Norwood]

The naginata is cleanly handled by the polearm profiency allready extant (is "extant" a word?). What the schools really are are interconnected sets of proficiencies. Thus the musashi school would teach more than just one and two swords--it would also cover anything else that musashi felt was an important part of martial training (such as the spear).

On top of that, I'm still trying to decide how much asia I want in TFOB, especially with the TROS Japan book coming out.

Jake

[LordSmerf]

I just wanted to chime in with everyone who advocates minor numerical tweaks for Schools.  I like the way it's handled in The Burning Wheel (which is remarkably similar to TROS, in the best possible way) you may get a bonus to Aggressive stance but a penalty to Defensive, maybe you are penalized for striking twice in one round.  I guess i'd be happy with anything that gave the schools a little bit of personality that matters numerically as opposed to "this is what the school teaches, but you don't have to play it that way."

Thomas

[Salamander]

The naginata is cleanly handled by the polearm profiency allready extant (is "extant" a word?). What the schools really are are interconnected sets of proficiencies. Thus the musashi school would teach more than just one and two swords--it would also cover anything else that musashi felt was an important part of martial training (such as the spear).

On top of that, I'm still trying to decide how much asia I want in TFOB, especially with the TROS Japan book coming out.

Jake

I believe extant is a word.

As for how the schools(proficiencies) are going to be handled, I like how Jake is planning to do it. This will be gold for my Renaissance campaign!

[Ben Lehman]

The naginata is cleanly handled by the polearm profiency allready extant (is "extant" a word?).

BL>  Your usage question has foolishly summoned the Pedant Demon from beyond space and time.

[quote="The Pedant Demon]
Extant is a word.  Further, "proficiency" and "already" are spelled as such.
[/quote]

(I apologize for the rude and abrupt tone of the Pedant Demon.)

On top of that, I'm still trying to decide how much asia I want in TFOB, especially with the TROS Japan book coming out.

BL>  Maybe, since the Japan book is coming out, you could have some other Asia?  *makes big puppy dog eyes*
  In particular, example Hard and Soft Hand-Fighting methods would be very, very useful. (Perhaps they could both be covered by a Shaolin passage.  Mmmm... Shaolin...)

yrs--
--Ben

[Enoch]

I don't know how prevalent they were as a school/style in a medieval Western setting, but try not to forget the other weapons.

I'm sure there are at least a few knife fighting techniques.  I have no clue about mass weapons, polearms, etc.

-Joshua

[Jaif]

You just gotta have something about quarterstaves.  I don't know diddley about weapon masters, but come up with someone if you can. :-)

[Merritt Baggett]

Not to focus on just fencing, but I came across this website:

http://www.martinez-destreza.com/articles/spanish1.htm

THe site discusses the "Spanish" approach to fencing.  My problem is, not being someone actually trained in fencing myself, I don't want to immediately trust something just because someone posted it on the internet.

However, if the site does have any validity, then information like this would be really useful to those of us lacking practical fighting experience.  In particular, the site seems to boil down differences between schools that could be loosely translated to aspects such as: Italian-style schools favor "counter" style maneuvers while Spanish-style favors more of a "duck and weave" which is then followed up with a "thrust".  Well, granted that's perhaps an oversimplifaction but what do more experienced fencers think?

*note, I'm not trying to promote any one style over another; simply I'm looking for ways to accurately describe the various styles.  I can't remember the skill since I don't have the main book with me but for example there is a skill that allows players to observe and analyze the style used by other people.  I'm looking to be able to provide information that is both meaningful tactically in a "gamist" sense and yet be able set a more distinctive and colorful scene as well.

[Mokkurkalfe]

I have a little pet peeve regarding supplements such as these.
A lot of times the people made with the supplement in question (fighing men in this case, I guess) becomes a lot more powerful than those made without the supplement.
This because the book is shock full of bonuses and little else.
So, could you keep TFOB-made and core TROS-made fighters balanced? Please? Having said that, I have full faith in that Jake & Co can do just that.

Sketches is a good idea. I have always liked clear, crisp pencil sketches, like the encumberance pics. Plenty of those, please!

The skillset is a good idea, as long as you avoid having dozens upon dozens of weird skills with only a single use.
I wonder however, how you would handle a character who has trained under two or more masters? Would he get three skillsets?

[Jake Norwood]

Mok-

good questions and points. SOmething to think on. Don't worry about kewl powerz, though. Cool options, maybe, cool ideas, cool color, cool new strategy, but nothing that will dwarf what exists. One player using TFOB stuff and one not using them won't neccessarily be on different pages.

Jake

[Peregrine Dace]

So I'm working on designing some specific masters and the schools they represent. The Current project is converting what little we know of actual historical masters into a few key examples, and coming up with stats and info that is appropriate and as accurate as possible (which isn't much).

What I'm really doing here is putting out a request list for what you'd like to see (or not see) in a selection of fighting schools and their masters--both who and what.

Jake

Capo Ferro and Agrippa as competing rapier schools
George Silver (all about the saber, and a nice counterpoint to normal rapier)
Talhoffer
and I'm blanking on the German wrestling fectbuch that Talhoffer borrowed heavily from (i.e. stole wholeheartedly).
Does that help any?

I think a general Lichtenauer trad would work, incorporating Dobringer, Ringeck, Talhoffer, Lignitzer, Otto Jud etc.
Bardi Scool (Marozzo, dal'Aggocce(sp?) etc)
Destreza (Carranza, Narveaz, Thibault)
Liberi (Liberi and Vadi)
Transitional (di Grassi and Agrippa)
Italian Rapier (largely Fabris, perhaps conrasting with Capo Ferro)
Backsword (Silver and some of the later guys)
I.33 pretty much stands alone

that should cover enough that people can mix and match for other flavour as the mood takes them

Peregrine