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Ron & All,

Has CD publishing been successful for anyone? I remember one company that promised to do several RPGs per different CDs, with supplemental material and programs included on them.... I thought they were going to do one with Sorcerer -- what happened with that Ron? I also notice that Archangel by Visionary Games is offered in triple threat: soft cover, cd, and pdf. A good way to expand your market?

Let me know if I got my info mixed up.

Thanks,
Nathan

Nathan,

Check out these two threads on this very forum.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=583&forum=12&7">this one

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=126&forum=12&7">that one

And to answer your question, yes, a company did publish the PDF of Sorcerer on a CD. It was a total waste of time and energy.

Best,
Ron

[ This Message was edited by: Ron Edwards on 2001-11-08 18:15 ]

Thanks Ron,

Question for the general crowd -> I know the pros and cons of CD publishing, but I'd still love to see a "break even" project to get some indie rpg archives on CD and out there somewhere. I don't have any clue how much it is to press about 5000 CDs, but perhaps we let indie game designers do most of the work.

The CD would include an html directory of a ton of free indie rpg games, probably with a few demos and nifty software.

To get your rpg on the CD, you have to pay $25 for a single file and folder. To include any extra files, supplements, adventures, software, and so on, it is an extra $5 per file or some such... One time fee by the way...

That might break Jared, but the point is, us designers band together and rake enough cash together to get 5000 CDs pressed... From that point on, we each get maybe 100 apiece, but the rest are given away to Gencon or we work up a deal where some are included with a game mag like Games Unplugged or some such....

Would it work? Or would it be a dismal pointless failure? Would we get some more eyeballs our way?

Of course, I would love to hang on to a few just so I could always get bored of gaming and dig through it, pull out some of the funky ideas therein and do something different. It would also be really neat to pull out down the road and say, "Hey, this RPG, written in 2000, was way ahead of the curve."

Thanks,
Nathan

5000 CDs??

It staggers me. Why 5000? Can anyone explain to me why that quantity is proposed?

500 would seem more sensible.

Best,
Ron

Well, 5000... 500.. whatever...

Wouldn't the point be for it to get out there en mass somewhere?

I wouldn't mind having quite a few copies to pass on to people. We would not be selling them -- they would be great stuff to give to cons to give away as prize packages or to GMs or whatever. In retrospect, considering that there are really under 30 or so people that would be a part of this deal, 500 is probably more of a realistic number. Anyone got any numbers on that?

Or maybe someone has access to a big CD-RW tower and would be willing to burn some?

Anyway,

Thanks,
Nathan
nathanh@cameron.edu

Nathan,

I think you are over-estimating the customer base to an enormous degree. Marketing and promotion of role-playing games, especially specialty or avant-garde ones, is not like marketing shoes or sports equipment.

Flatly, if you give away CDs at conventions or to distributors or whoever, you are not going to sell any. Everyone who wants one will have one already. Such a device must be either promotion or product, not both.

I strongly suggest that if a CD/RPG is to be any good, it's going to be the full game with a ton of extras (music, images, animation, etc) that take a lot more effort than just hitting the button on the burner (using the CD as a big floppy). If it's going to be that much effort, then it should be a product, not a promo device.

Big-ass companies LOSE money on promotion. That's what they do. It's all in hopes that sales will be in a projected range. Conversely, small and feisty companies MAKE money on promotion, by letting the product be as easy and quick to get as the promo-device itself.

If you're a small-guy and you think like a big-guy, you'll be losing money and selling vapor. There's a lot of that sort of thing out there in RPG-land, and I can't see any reason at all to add to it.

Best,
Ron

I don't want to be disrespectful, but Ron, do you even read these posts?

If you had read my posts, you would have seen that I said up front that these would be for promotion. Think about it - everyone takes their "complete" rpgs in text, html, PDF or whatever, we chunk them on to one CD. We divvy up content in folders. We all chip in together and pay for the about 500 or more to be made. We each get a slice of those to use to give away -- or alternately, we get a slice but a larger slice goes to another organization. That org then gives them away at cons and so on.

This would not make any money -- the point would be to have a nifty cd containing a ton of cool indie games that I could keep for a long time -- and to perhaps get some of these games out there. I am not sure if most gamers would explore the CD if they got it at a con, but they might.

In other words, in fifteen years, I could whip out this CD, put it into my old Mac, and get a laugh reading Pumpkintown, or The Pool, or whatever else is thrown on there. Or, I could even play them again.

Do you understand now?

Thanks man,
Nathan

Well Nathan, I've understood you throughout. My response is that the effort spent on promotion of this kind is misplaced.

It's misplaced because what people GET on that CD is not promotion, but product.

Now, I could be wrong. Like you, I would LOVE a garage-compilation of a ton of great games, on a CD. I've been trying to conceive of a viable model for this for over two years; I've even participated in what turned out to be a failed attempt at such a thing.

More ideas on how it might work would be great to hear about. However, the idea of zipping such a thing out there as promotion seems to me to be entirely self-defeating.

Best,
Ron

Whoops, double-posted.

RE

[ This Message was edited by: Ron Edwards on 2001-11-13 11:29 ]

Without packaging (Just CD's with printing on the disc), this could be quite cheap... You could fit several games on a disc for about the same price as publishing one hard copy game.

The thing I wonder about is: Would a person or small game publisher get any real additional promotion or recognition of their game by having it on such a CD? Anyone with a CD-ROM should realistically have internet access, which means they could just download the game whenever they would want to. And with either format, they still need to print out their own hardcopy.

And if this were a 'for sale' product, why would anyone pay for a CD of indie games if they were the same as the free internet versions?

And if one were to solely publish on CD, you'd have an uphill battle promoting to a market / industry that has already decided that CD isn't the way to go.

Seems to me that the answer is no, and they wouldn't; gamers think that CD's are OK for reference (Best of Dragon), but not for rules.

Ah, what the heck, I've got a few minutes to burn at the end of the day...

I think the real question here is: How do you get some promotion for your indie RPG? All this talk of CD's and print runs really boils down to: How do I get people to look at my game?

I can think of several ways that I've seen work:
1) Photocopies given away at your local game store.
2) Photocopies given away at GenCon.
3) Run demos of your game at the LGS or a Con.
4) Before you go to the Con, print up a newsletter to give away to people who are interested, or eye-catching flyers to post about your demos or freebies.

Like anything, you need to think globally, but act locally.

And all of these are easy to accomplish; small amount of money, and no massive organisation of designers is needed.

Here in WI, it seems that we've begun 'network playtesting' as well... Just over a week ago, I drove to Milw. to play unheilig's Primeval, and Mike Holmes' Universalis. Then a couple days later I played my Two Page Action Movie RPG with my new group (YAYYY!!!). The night after, I played Four Colors al Fresco with the group that designed it (I will post about the 2nd FCaF session this Weds).

Like Ron said in the last post (I think). Network, network, network. This is a very human hobby. It's very basis is social. It's a lot easier to spread the word using the word, than it is to throw money at it...

'Alternative CD-anything' is usually a bad idea because the format is always adapted inefficiently or improperly.  It's often a victim of the false notion that technology will fill the consumer's gap of doubt.  Will it work the same? Will it be as good?  

That said, I think that Nathan's idea is essentially sound.  However, it would benefit all parties best (consumer and publisher) if the games were 'quick-play' versions.  Otherwise we are undermining the goals of both.  Here's how.    

First: By limiting participation to quick-play versions we can accomplish the number one goal (for both parties) which is to include enough information to get people

playing

our games RIGHT AWAY.  As opposed to having them wade through (and/or print out) a huge amount of text.

Last: It allows us as designers/publishers to preserve a certain level of

value

in the eyes of the consumer.  'Cause if it's free it can't be worth much, right?  And I would seriously consider adding a label that reads "Just Games - No Advertisements"

I might also add "F*ck the sHyTstem" but I'm not the only one paying the bill, so...

4ever Punk Jeff
 

     

I agree, Jeff.

Maybe we divide our content up. The Wild, for example, is going to be sold online in its next incarnation, with art and what not. But, I do plan on keeping some sort of "Preview" or "Free" version out there. (Actually, from the way Ron has been talking, I may not even do that.)

But, there are some projects I have worked on or am working on that I will never sell but would love to see on a CD. For example, sk8er, FERpg, and probably tidbits of adventures and systems I have done. I think that a ton of us here on the forums have those sort of things (*ahem* Memento-Mori *cough*). It would be great to make a lasting record of all of that creativity....

So the CD would only contain - FREE games OR limited versions of commercial games. It's purpose would to be a repository of creative ideas for gamers everywhere AND to promote indie rpgs.... (Obviously, if someone checks out ... say sk8er, they would probably log onto my website and then possibly see The Wild... which would be one of the points...)

Does this sound better? Ron, what do you think about that more narrow idea?

Thanks,
Nathan

Just to throw another idea in here, one that just popped into me noggin...

Why not do a collective BOOK instead? Doing a softcover wouldn't cost that much more than CD, and then you'd have the printed product in your hand. Which is what everyone wants in the end anyways.

This would not only give you the promotional item you desire at a reasonable cost, but by splitting up the cost and print run, each designer would get X amount to distribute however they want. They could be given away, or sold, and even gotten to stores by direct sales, if not via 3T distribution.

I think a project like this has a chance of getting into stores as well.

20 GAMES FOR $20! (suggested retail price, of course. :smile: ) I think the average gamer would plunk down $20 if there were only 2-3 games they were interested in.

Sean,

This idea has been kicking around for a while, and at least two serious attempts to organize cropped up over the last year.

I like the idea ... a little bit. It has exactly the same problem as with the CD, which is that one doesn't promote a product by giving the product away.

Which would mean one of two things. (1) The games in the book would have to be "half-baked" or "lite" versions of the games-to-come, and many people would not buy the book because they don't want "incomplete" games. (2) The games in the book ARE done, just short, and that's that.

I like #2 pretty well.

Then the next problem crops up. Books cost money to print. Who does it? Even worse, who owns the games? And how are the creators actually paid? It's all well and good to say, "Oh, we'll all chip in," and "You publish it, but we'll, like, own our own stuff," and that sort of thing. In practice, that disintegrates fast.

So is payment done by royalties? Some sort of joint company? Who's in charge? Etc, etc.

Anyway, if some solution at that level happens, I'd love to see such a thing.

Best,
Ron