Late is better than never, especially on a quiet board!

[mf_v1]

So I've been meaning to drop a line to this board for an age, and never gotten around to it until now.

Upon my prompting, a fellow gamer of mine (Who has slowly been corrupted and educated into a die-hard wrestling fan) bought the Expanded Kayfabe printed book.

We read it up, agreed it was cool and have played twice so far.  Annoyingly one of the regular players doesn't 'get it' at all, and has halted continuing it for the timebeing, but hey, we'll figure something out.

So anyway, after a couple of sessions we raised the following points and I figured I'd mention them here.

Firstly, the book died!  I mean, fell into bits...  After the first session.  I know this doesn't really matter since it's just ended up in a file wallet, but keeping the print cost low has meant its survivability has suffered, depending on further play, we may order the PDF and work from my laptop.

Two, more positively, it rocks!  Matt, kudos to you, the game goes a long way towards capturing what a lot of us have wanted in a game...  And it's left us with a 'why didn't anyone do it before?' feeling.  I've rarely had a session as vocal or exciting as with this game.  Which is entertaining when you think that its about pre-planned TV entertainment.

Three, like a few people, I found the writing a little unclear.  But playing solved 99% of the problems, as is the way of all games.

Four, you describe only a few of the promotion types, namely 'backyard' (shit) wrestling and developmental, but nothing is given on the style I think most people will play:  Struggling 3am TV wrestling!  Just figured something might be added when/if you do another update.

Finally, I recommend a house rule for all players.  All real promotions (that is, not backyard toss) should begin with 5 APs to cover advertising and stuff, consider it a 'buzz' about a new promotion in town or the like.  This avoids the problem we had after our first show, realising that we'd need to sell some of the chaff 'jobbers' to promote the next (out-of-town) show and make any cash from it.

My meandering message complete, I say goodbye, may Great Cthulhu devour your children.

[Matt Gwinn]

Hey, I'm glad you enjoyed playing.
I'm sorry your book fell apart on you, I'll make it up to you.

I noticed a couple of my copies had some pages fall out too.  I was pretty upset by it, but hoped it wasn't a problem with every copy.  If anyone else has a similar problem with their copy just contact me using the same email address you used to buy the game and I will hook you up with a free PDF.

,Matt Gwinn
Errant Knight Games
matt @errantknightgames.com

[Mike Holmes]

Welcome MF,

"Didn't get it". What didn't he get? Was he perhaps expecting to play the personal of a wrestler? I'm kinda concerned because I think that the idea behind Kayfabe is pretty grabby.

Mike

[mf_v1]

He didn't seem to get into the whole running a promotion idea really.  He enjoyed the storyline plotting and writing, but everyone could tell he wasn't into the actual events after that, I guess he wanted to be a bit more 'hands on' at this stage.

So while the rest of us are 'whooping' and yelling moves and stuff, he'd just drifted into a corner and fell silent.  This happened on both occasions and since it put the rest of us off (as it does) we had to ask him.

[Mike Holmes]

Wait, he liked the plotting, but not the wrestling? Unusual. Maybe you can make him the Booker? Or play a part that's only about the back-office stuff.

Or have I misread you?

Mike

[mf_v1]

Nah, I'm the booker, since I'm the most anally retentive on the rules and have the most time for reading the books and plotting things out.  We'll be starting a new game in the new year if all goes according to plan, new that we know how to run it, and we'll see what people feel like then.

[Matt Gwinn]

Three, like a few people, I found the writing a little unclear. But playing solved 99% of the problems, as is the way of all games.

THat's pretty good, I'm always worried that my intrustion doesn't translate well to paper.  I can live with 99%. So, what's the 1% that's unclear? Maybe I can clear it up.

Four, you describe only a few of the promotion types, namely 'backyard' (shit) wrestling and developmental, but nothing is given on the style I think most people will play: Struggling 3am TV wrestling!

That's basicly the default promotion type.  I guess I took for granted that most of the people that would play understood that.  What exactly do you think would be helpful?  Maybe I could put together a free sourcebook or something.

Finally, I recommend a house rule for all players. All real promotions (that is, not backyard toss) should begin with 5 APs to cover advertising and stuff, consider it a 'buzz' about a new promotion in town or the like.

That sounds reasonable to me.

In regards to your friend that "didn't get it", maybe you can change the setting a bit to help draw him in.  Is he into Science Fiction stuff?  I'm still waiting for someone to run an otherworldly promotion with aliens and stuff.  Imagine the moves you could so with 4 arms, or tentacles and a tail!  Since all the fighting is narrated and the outcome predetermined little extras like that have no adverse affects on how the game works.

Well, keep me posted on how your game goes.

,Matt Gwinn

[mf_v1]

...Right, no excuse for not replying sooner.  I'm a lazy bastard who plays far too much Smackdown:HCTP for typing.  Ah well, here goes.

As far as the rules and things being unclear, that's just something I find with most rpgs.  Until you play them they don't tend to make too much sense.  Putting it into practise is the make-or-break of any game, so don't worry about anything bookwise.

Promotion stuff seems to me the only skimpy area.  The developmental promo' is good, not that we'd use it I don't think.  Backyard doesn't need too much detail (A few thick arseholes jump off stuff and set one another on fire...  Pity they can't neuter themselves while they're at it.) but I can understand it's inclusion for completion's sake.  But what about BIG company stuff?  A lot more focus on backstage politicking and a greater risk of being dumped...  Or 'Old Territory' style, figure it'd warrant a mention at least.

As for our resident player who isn't into the game, I just think it's him.  Unless he can play a Mage, Ninja or Sniper, he won't play...  Ha, sad but true.  The rest of us are considering other ways or days to continue after the new year.

And to add something, without sounding too critical (as I often do) I'll say that everyone loves the little 'Backstage Politics: Glass Ceiling' peice.  That's really funny and very cool.  If you intend to add anything else to the game, how about a 'Survivors Guide to the Business'?  Like a players guide to running his wrestlers behind the scenes.

Anyways, thanks for the responses thus far, though I couldn't get through on the link you said before btw...  No idea why.  No bother since the soft-cover's still usable.

Right, off to continue Smackdown as Bret Hart!  ...The Best.

May great Cthulhu devour your children.

[Matt Gwinn]

But what about BIG company stuff? A lot more focus on backstage politicking and a greater risk of being dumped...

Do you mean like WWE?  I didn't include that sort of stuff because aside from the money there really isn't that much of a difference.  You could easily run a WWE size company by simply ramping up your promotion's Resources when you start playing.  The rules say you can give your promotion up to 100 trait points when you create it.  

Or 'Old Territory' style, figure it'd warrant a mention at least.

Cynthia Celeste Miller (author of Cartoon Action Hour) is writing an Old School handbook for Kayfabe.  We haven't talked about it in a while, but I think she's just waiting on artwork.

And to add something, without sounding too critical (as I often do) I'll say that everyone loves the little 'Backstage Politics: Glass Ceiling' peice. That's really funny and very cool.

Thanks, I particularly proud of the piece myself :-)

If you intend to add anything else to the game, how about a 'Survivors Guide to the Business'? Like a players guide to running his wrestlers behind the scenes.

I really want to release regular articles for the game for free that would cover stuff like that.  I haven't been very motivated however.  Primarily because not many people actually play Kayfabe on a regular basis, but mostly because I'm lazy.

Thanks for posting.

,Matt Gwinn

[Captain Kayfabe]

Well I guess this is as good of a first post as any.

I'm shocked to hear that not many people play Kayfabe on a regular basis. Over here in merry old England, I have an obsessive group of Kayfabe players which I have to attempt to control.

Regular articles for the game would probably save my life, as they (the group) are constantly bawling for more reference material, which I am unable to provide, unless I sit down and write it out myself. Which is fun but still not what I want to be doing with my free time (what I want to be doing is playing the actual game).

[Matt Gwinn]

That's great to hear!  It always surprises me that my game has made it all the way across the pond - isn't the internet great.  

WHat kind of reference material is your group interested in?  Maybe all I need is a little inspiration to get  me writing again.

,Matt

[Captain Kayfabe]

Well the Old School Handbook sounds great because we're all a little obsessed with CWA, Mid-South, etc.

But aside from that what I get the most demands for is ideas, now my group certainly isn't the stupidest in the world, but two of them don't even watch current wrestling anymore (WWE being the spawn of the devil yaddy yaddy yadda), so they often come up short when it comes to dreaming up storylines, gimmicks and the like.

Great Lakes Championship Wrestling on the official Kayfabe site was great because that really showed them how a show could run, so anything like that is good, and yeah 'The Glass Ceiling' was full of good ideas... ahem... well good bad ideas if you see what I mean.

Inspiration is what they want.

Oh and Tim (member of my group) has just lent over my shoulder and said a few more assets and flaws might not go a miss.

Is that any help?

[mf_v1]

Hey, Captain Kayfabe!

Good to know another British group is going.  Out of interest, are you running your promotion in the UK or do you default to the US?
 We run out of Manchester (Even though we don't live there) and travel the country.

As far as reference material goes, just sit 'em in front of a few internet sites.  There are loads with a lot of in-depth bits and pieces about superstars and their gimmicks or whatever.  My personal favourite was Obsessed with Wrestling, but that shut down recently, which sucks.

obviously if they won't watch the WWE, you'll have problems, since it's all we really have in this country on TV.  Me and my group watch it religiously, depite the crud on it, for the real stars that they have: Jericho, Storm, Benoit...  Even if it mans we have to sit through Goldberg and Big Show every now and again.

One idea I have toyed with is a 'Fantasy WWE' game, where oyu can use ANY superstar, but his skills and abilities must be agreed on by all players.  Obviously only an option if you watch a WHOLE LOTTA wrestling and can spot a loser in action.  But it would be cool to pitch Bret Hart against Kurt Angle, or whoever else you might like...

[Captain Kayfabe]

Yes we do run it in England.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[Cynthia Celeste Miller]

Well the Old School Handbook sounds great because we're all a little obsessed with CWA, Mid-South, etc.

The artwork for Old School will be finished by the 15th of March and shouldn't take long to lay out.  It covers the 1950s, '60s and early '70s.